Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Discuss topics relating to airlines.

Moderators: North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako

McKinley
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:19 pm

Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by McKinley »

Pretty Self Explanatory...

It’ll be interesting to see how things pan out.. one cannot get blood from a stone.

https://www.thestar.com/politics/federa ... -cent.html
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
RedAndWhiteBaron
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 140
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:55 pm

Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

I really, really, hate to go political. But, what typical bureaucratic thinking... "Oh shit, demand has gone down! Let's raise prices!" Sorry but only a bureaucratic monopoly thinks like this. Canada Post did much the same thing recently.

To be fair, I don't envy their position. They provide a rather essential service, and have not dropped the ball. I in fact called the London FIC for a weather report for a road trip of all things recently, and they were, as always, happy to help, and quite informative. They seemed almost... bored. They rerouted me down Ontario highway 17 instead of 11, and from the reports we could pick up on the radio on that trip, they were unquestionably correct. It would have been hellish without their help.

So while one one hand I see this as typical gubmint bureaucrat mentality, I recognize the value of the service they provide. What a tough position. Rock and a hard place, much?
---------- ADS -----------
 
I will dance the sky on laughter-silvered wings.
co-joe
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3665
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME

Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by co-joe »

No comments here in 2 months but as of then not one layoff despite a 90 something % drop in air travel?

viewtopic.php?f=68&t=137969
---------- ADS -----------
 
fishface
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:20 pm

Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by fishface »

They would be insane to lay off due to the staffing shortages that they’ve been fighting and the investment required to train controllers and maintain their proficiency.

I was told that the company needs to give the union something like a 6 month heads up if they want to lay off. So what’s the point ha!
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Daniel Cooper
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 272
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:38 am
Location: Unknown

Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by Daniel Cooper »

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 7:36 pm I in fact called the London FIC for a weather report for a road trip of all things recently
Please don't do this. Fees are high enough.
---------- ADS -----------
 
McKinley
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:19 pm

Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by McKinley »

I too appreciate the service provided by the fine folks at Nav Canada.

With that being said, service levels have been cut in the FSS realm/ ATC realm. ( I’m sure there’s a savings figure associated with that)

Also, when a lot of the compensation packages are * ahem* more than very generous ( correct me if I am wrong) I have a hard time justifying this. How much were the cuts to management ?

The entire aviation sector has been upended, a 90% decline in travel with a predicted protracted recovery. I can’t really reconcile the thought process behind this increase. At this point, jobs are being cut, benefits and careers and families are being “ upended” along with the airlines. The sector needs life breathed into it ... not to be bled dry during a coma ...if something positive is not done Canadians should prepare for more job loss in the aviation sector.

I hope people like greyhound..
---------- ADS -----------
 
co-joe
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3665
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME

Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by co-joe »

fishface wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 12:05 am They would be insane to lay off due to the staffing shortages that they’ve been fighting and the investment required to train controllers and maintain their proficiency.

I was told that the company needs to give the union something like a 6 month heads up if they want to lay off. So what’s the point ha!
The point is, that the airlines were fighting staffing shortages and have enormous training costs too. The difference is the Airlines don't operate in a monopoly. We cant just keep everyone employed and hand someone a bigger bill to pay for it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4150
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by altiplano »

I agree.

Maybe time to operate only 1 ground/tower controller, combine sectors, go to a MF/ATF after 10 pm, and decommision some bureaucrats while they're at it.

There clearly isn't the traffic to support the staffing levels.

Adding more taxes and fees is no way to support a recovery of air traffic.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Gilles Hudicourt
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2201
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:51 am
Location: YUL

Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Do they understand that all airlines are fighting for their lives right now and that several are unlikely to survive ? Do they understand that others may file for bankruptcy protection, like Air Canada, their largest customer then and now, already did once in 2003 ?

Back then, they had increased the fees for all companies, to make up for the shortfall of decreased traffic and bad debts....

https://www.navcanada.ca/EN/media/Publi ... sed-EN.pdf
Labour represents over 70% of the Company’s operating costs.
While they maintain 100% employment with 100% of salary, they claim, according to this article:

https://www.thestar.com/politics/federa ... m_content=
“We are proposing this only after pursuing all available alternatives, including government assistance,” Neil Wilson, the company’s president and CEO, said in an interview.

http://www.intervistas.com/downloads/CA ... pr2003.pdf

So the companies that survive are expected to pay for those that fail and for the bad debt of those that file for bankruptcy protection, while Nav Canada continues as though we were not living a National Crisis of wartime magnitude.....
---------- ADS -----------
 
Stu Pidasso
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:55 pm

Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by Stu Pidasso »

Nav Canada is an embarrassment to this country, they fail to see that they are a service provider. Controller salaries have sky rocketed with their persistent game of overtime and controlling staffing by a ridiculous wash out rate.

The Airlines in this country are getting slaughtered and Nav Canada has the audacity to up their fees.

Pathetic!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Braun
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 779
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:32 pm

Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by Braun »

Stu Pidasso wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 10:03 am Nav Canada is an embarrassment to this country, they fail to see that they are a service provider. Controller salaries have sky rocketed with their persistent game of overtime and controlling staffing by a ridiculous wash out rate.

The Airlines in this country are getting slaughtered and Nav Canada has the audacity to up their fees.

Pathetic!
Nav Canada has given back millions of dollars in the past years to airlines. We work overtime because yes it pays well but also because it is very difficult to train people and the days of overtime protection are long gone.

Controller salaries in Canada are on par with international salaries and our fees have been low and rarely increased since 2004. I understand it is frustrating and that 29% is a big number but Nav Canada is a not for profit so the day that these fees are no longer required they will, by law, reduce the service rates as they’ve done in the past.

We’re are in this together and we, at Nav Canada, want nothing more than a prosperous aviation sector as it directly impacts us front line employees as well.

We aren’t perfect but Nav Canada offers great service IMO.

As for their being now layoffs...yes well, we still need to staff our units as we are an essential service. We are split into teams to minimize the risk of many people being sick and have postponed our salary increases, including 2019, and the back pay we were owed for 2019.

Good luck to all in these difficult times. As a pilot and controller I hope everyone gets back to work ASAP.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Stu Pidasso
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:55 pm

Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by Stu Pidasso »

Sorry Braun, as a customer of Nav Canada I don't see it like that at all. How many Nav Canada employees lost their job or took a pay cut due to Covid?

Rhetorical question since we know the answer is "none," Nav Canada is weathering the storm quite nicely. Certainly nothing against individual Controllers, but Nav Canada provides a terrible product.

The usual slow down 300nm from Vancouver due to traffic, to revised "Star" for more spacing, to speed your discretion - to end up being the only Airplane in the sky on Approach.

As someone who fly's Internationally I can tell you first hand that this nonsense does not happen anywhere else on the Planet! Don't get me started about Calgary, fortunately I never fly there anymore.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Braun
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 779
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:32 pm

Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by Braun »

:? :?
Stu Pidasso wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 1:46 pm Sorry Braun, as a customer of Nav Canada I don't see it like that at all. How many Nav Canada employees lost their job or took a pay cut due to Covid?

Rhetorical question since we know the answer is "none," Nav Canada is weathering the storm quite nicely. Certainly nothing against individual Controllers, but Nav Canada provides a terrible product.

The usual slow down 300nm from Vancouver due to traffic, to revised "Star" for more spacing, to speed your discretion - to end up being the only Airplane in the sky on Approach.

As someone who fly's Internationally I can tell you first hand that this nonsense does not happen anywhere else on the Planet! Don't get me started about Calgary, fortunately I never fly there anymore.
Technically, all managers have had pay cuts and my salary is 6% less than what it should be. No one is complaining here. As for your STAR reduction comment I can 100% guarantee you that about 7-8 years ago all the airlines were complaining about flow, being low and slow etc...STAR’s were developed in consequence and the word we were told my the airlines (chief pilots and higher) was that they wanted to be reduce early and stay higher. If possible constant descent at idle. Obviously flow control will never be perfect and I don’t work out west. I’ve been to several international airport units (FRA, CDG, AMS) and while some things are better they really have some downsides too.

Saying Nav Canada is a terrible product is simply not true. I’m not saying we’re perfect but it’s definitely not terrible.

Last point, who’s on the board of directors of Nav Canada?...the airlines
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8007
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by photofly »

Stu Pidasso wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 1:46 pm Sorry Braun, as a customer of Nav Canada I don't see it like that at all. How many Nav Canada employees lost their job or took a pay cut due to Covid?
That's right. We're not happy until they're not happy, so definitely sack some ATCOs. That'll make everything better.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Braun
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 779
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:32 pm

Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by Braun »

photofly wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 2:00 pm
Stu Pidasso wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 1:46 pm Sorry Braun, as a customer of Nav Canada I don't see it like that at all. How many Nav Canada employees lost their job or took a pay cut due to Covid?
That's right. Sack some ATCO's. That'll make everything better.
Well, they’ve started offering packages for people to retire. We are losing ATCO’s because of this already. Staffing was an issue and it’s going to be one again in a year or two.
---------- ADS -----------
 
wordstwice
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 199
Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 2:48 pm
Location: pointy end

Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by wordstwice »

I don’t understand why anyone would want a controller to be laid off. When traffic starts to come back, even at 50%, we need every one of these controllers to be sitting in their seats to reduce or eliminate flow delays.

A 30% increase in fees (which is allowed to be deferred for up to five years btw) is nothing compared to the financial cost of flow delays.

Also, don’t forget all the services Nav Canada provides beyond ATC (wx, Notams, Navaids) and they are mandated by the government to provide these services.

There’s undoubtedly some excess at Nav Canada that could be reduced well before touching any operational people.

If you have complaints about how things are run by Nav Canada, and I share some of your frustrations, that’s a difference thread.
---------- ADS -----------
 
thenoflyzone
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun May 04, 2014 2:19 pm
Location: YUL

Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by thenoflyzone »

Until 2019, NavCan hadn't increased its service charges for 15 years.

Under the charging principles of the Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization Act, NAV CANADA must ensure that its service charges are not set at a level that, based on reasonable and prudent projections, would generate revenues exceeding the Corporation’s current and future financial requirements for providing civil air navigation service. Basically, the service charge is set to cover costs, and not to generate a profit.

Service charge increase/decrease in the last 4 years:

2016 - reduction of service charges by an average of 7.6%

https://www.navcanada.ca/EN/media/Pages/NR-25-2016.aspx

2017 - reduction of service charges by an average of 3.9%

https://www.navcanada.ca/EN/media/Pages/NR-12-2017.aspx

2018 - reduction of service charges by an average of 0.4%

https://www.navcanada.ca/EN/media/Pages/NR-14-2018.aspx

2019 - increase of service charges by an average of 0.8% related to space based ADS-B (first time in 15 years there has been a rate increase)

https://www.navcanada.ca/EN/media/Pages ... 2019-.aspx
The proposed rate changes would bring service charges on January 1, 2020 to less than 1 per cent higher than they were more than two decades ago when fully introduced in 1999 – 46 percentage points less than the cumulative growth in inflation.
2020 - increase of service charges by an average of 29.5% (actual payment can be delayed to Sept 2021, and defered over a 5 year period)

https://www.navcanada.ca/EN/Pages/NR-27-2020.aspx

So even with a near 30% increase, over the course of NavCan's existence, service charges haven't increased as much as inflation has.
McKinley wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 7:25 am

With that being said, service levels have been cut in the FSS realm/ ATC realm. ( I’m sure there’s a savings figure associated with that)
Actually, there isn't. NavCan isn't saving a penny with those measures. It is done with staff safety in mind.

https://www.navcanada.ca/EN/media/Pages/NR-25-2020.aspx
At its area control centres, NAV CANADA has implemented a “crew” system that minimizes interaction between teams. However, this level of staffing is not available at some of our regional facilities without the temporary reduction in service.
By cutting midnight shifts, those smaller units can put in place an efficient crew system, one that minimizes interaction. All staff at these units continue to get payed. So NavCan isn't saving anything with these measures
Stu Pidasso wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 10:03 am Nav Canada is an embarrassment to this country, they fail to see that they are a service provider. Controller salaries have sky rocketed with their persistent game of overtime and controlling staffing by a ridiculous wash out rate.

The Airlines in this country are getting slaughtered and Nav Canada has the audacity to up their fees.

Pathetic!

Relax, take a deep breath, and count to 18 million. That's how many square kilometers of airspace NavCan has to cover with its services. There is a cost to that service. WIth revenues down, the cost of that service is going up. If you can't understand that, especially after everything I have written, than there isn't much else to say really.

ATC is an essential service. Joe Blo flying down to Cayo Coco with his family for some fun in the sun isn't essential. So comparing Air Canada's situation to that of NavCan's isn't entirely accurate. Yes, passengers will end up paying for these increases - that includes me btw -, but if you cant afford to fly, dont. Flying is not en entitlement, it's a privilege. People seem to forget that. Airlines selling tickets to fly half way around the world for 1000$ wasn't a sustainable model. It's a shame it it took a pandemic to illustrate that.

As for washout rates, they have steadily gone down over the years. And let's not pretend pilots didn't do overtime either.
---------- ADS -----------
 
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record ! We haven't left one up there yet !
User avatar
Old fella
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2035
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am

Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by Old fella »

Braun wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 2:03 pm
photofly wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 2:00 pm
Stu Pidasso wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 1:46 pm Sorry Braun, as a customer of Nav Canada I don't see it like that at all. How many Nav Canada employees lost their job or took a pay cut due to Covid?
That's right. Sack some ATCO's. That'll make everything better.
Well, they’ve started offering packages for people to retire. We are losing ATCO’s because of this already. Staffing was an issue and it’s going to be one again in a year or two.
When NC starts to offer packages to retire, they are attractive- ask me 😉. Speaking of NC my brief experience there was very positive, I considered it a fine place to work, can’t think of a bad experience outside of some minor employee conflict and the Corporation ironed it out positively. That happens everywhere. Travel on NC business and expense issues were never problematic for me, overall very good. However all of this was 15 yrs ago, perhaps different now. I still stay in touch with some of the Metcalfe St. older lot who moved on like me.
---------- ADS -----------
 
florch
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 126
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 9:22 pm

Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by florch »

thenoflyzone wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 5:15 am


ATC is an essential service. Joe Blo flying down to Cayo Coco with his family for some fun in the sun isn't essential. So comparing Air Canada's situation to that of NavCan's isn't entirely accurate. Yes, passengers will end up paying for these increases - that includes me btw -, but if you cant afford to fly, dont. Flying is not en entitlement, it's a privilege. People seem to forget that. Airlines selling tickets to fly half way around the world for 1000$ wasn't a sustainable model. It's a shame it it took a pandemic to illustrate that.

As for washout rates, they have steadily gone down over the years. And let's not pretend pilots didn't do overtime either.
How is ATC an essential service if airlines are not? Stronger economies than ours treat air travel as infrastructure instead of frivolous. The argument that someone made about furloughing controllers being impossible due to shortages and training time and cost applies equally to pilots in each regard. If controllers were to be laid off, where would they go to replace that income? They'd sit and wait for their recall just like the rest of us - they would go nowhere. I hope you all keep your jobs somehow. I wish you guys the best and respect the job you do immensely, but if you had to take a bite of the shit sandwich, you'd be in good company and you'd survive like the rest of us.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Gilles Hudicourt
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2201
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:51 am
Location: YUL

Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

thenoflyzone wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 5:15 am WIth revenues down, the cost of that service is going up. If you can't understand that, especially after everything I have written, than there isn't much else to say really.

ATC is an essential service. Joe Blo flying down to Cayo Coco with his family for some fun in the sun isn't essential. So comparing Air Canada's situation to that of NavCan's isn't entirely accurate. Yes, passengers will end up paying for these increases - that includes me btw -, but if you cant afford to fly, dont. Flying is not en entitlement, it's a privilege. People seem to forget that. Airlines selling tickets to fly half way around the world for 1000$ wasn't a sustainable model. It's a shame it it took a pandemic to illustrate that.

As for washout rates, they have steadily gone down over the years. And let's not pretend pilots didn't do overtime either.
You may want to look at these numbers.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-q ... 1b-eng.htm

After looking at them, you may understand the impact of airlines on the Canadian economy. Of the 22.1 millions foreign tourists who came to Canada in 2019, 12,7 million of them arrived by Air.

12,7 million foreign "Joe Bloes" that came to Canada to spend money on housing accommodations, restaurants, local transport (car rentals, taxis, buses and domestic airlines) and leisure activities. They provide jobs to millions of Canadians. If you don't think that this is "essential", there isn't much else to say really.

As for your last statement, I have never heard EVER in my flying career, of any company instructor pilot washing out an otherwise qualified new hire just so he could guarantee himself and some of his colleagues more flying overtime. Yet this went on for years at Nav Canada. I am happy to learn this is no longer the case. It was a stain on the institution.

IATA has recently declared that 50% of its 800 member airlines are at risk of bankruptcy before the end of 2020. It is when the airlines try to restart flying in the weeks to come that most failures will occur. Air traffic in 2020 and even 2121 may not be more than 50% of 2019 levels. Based on your logic, it would be normal for Nav-Can, an essential service, to hike its fees by 100% to makeup for the shortfall, putting a few more nails into the airline industry......

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busines ... t-of-cash/
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Sun May 24, 2020 8:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
Post Reply

Return to “General Airline Industry Comments”