Sunwing 2012-13

[aerosexual]

Jx3 Sunwing wants to hire seasonal Canadian pilots for the winter season. They had a job add up for a few days and had 60 ish qualified applicants apply. Work the winters and take the summer off. Cheaper for Sunwing and gets rid of foreign non recip pilots.

Any idea what the terms and conditions might be like for these seasonal pilots? It would be an interesting way to get the foot in the door and hopefully move up to a permanent position eventually. Perhaps this will help find the balance between increasing Canadian flying jobs and decrease foreign pilots coming in for the winter.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

"Takeoff OK"/"Gilles"

Gilles, you answered your own question. YES we did send pilots to Europe, as we have done for 6 years now.

So your saying that because SWG pilots are spending 6 months of there lives in Europe flying for the same companies that where flying for us last winter, that somehow this does not qualify as credit for reciprocity in any way??? (Yes it's not 1:1)
Because it's "C" reg instead of "F" reg??? Who cares what paper works such as Licenses and work permit are issued !! The whole point to create as much Canadian flying work as there is European work during our winter, now your adding ridiculous excuses like paper work. This clearly indicates you will not really be happy with any scenario, I think your just pissed off... "Scumwing" nice one. Guys I'm not on hear to argue (my wife gives me practice doing that) I'm just putting some facts into the discussion because it always seems one sided.

Gilles

Last year they sent 12 canadian pilots to work in Europe and then imported close to 200 foreign pilots in "reciprocity"

That is completely false, we sent a hell of a lot more pilots then that to Europe and had less than 200 Foreign pilots. You see statements like this are what motivate me onto this forum. And Gilles you lose creditability when you says things like this.

Well lets keep talking and get out the facts...

I am repeating myself, but because I cannot expect everyone on this thread to have read all the other posts in other related threads, here is again for your information:

The reciprocity program is not something invented and administered williy-nilly by Sunwing Airlines. It's a Federal program created under a Federal law, specifically the Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations "http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... age-1.html", it self part of the of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts ... index.html The Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations (IRPR) are administered by Citizenship and Immigration Canada (CIC).

Basically what these rules say is that a foreigner cannot come and work in Canada unless authorized to do so under the aforementioned laws and regulation. Those pilots who come to work for Sunwing and Canjet need a Work PErmit from CIC and come to Canada either according to R203(1) of the IRPR or under R205(b) or the same regulations.

203(1) Is the LMO method that is used by Canjet for all its foreign crews but that Sunwing used to import only 4 foreign pilots last year. That is the one where they put a bogus "help wanted" advertisement requiring a type rating etc.......

205(b) is the method used by Sunwing for the bulk of its foreign crews, the reciprocity method. All those who came last winter, except for the 4 pilots I just mentioned above and the Czech crews who were flying the Czech registered 737, came under 205(b). I made a request to CIC to obtain the exact numbers that came under this program every year since 2005 and will publish it here as soon as I get it. It's public information. I was however told by people who know that it was about 180 last year.

What this program states is that :

205. A work permit may be issued under section 200 to a foreign national who intends to perform work that
(b) would create or maintain reciprocal employment of Canadian citizens or permanent residents of Canada in other countries;

In addition to the Regulation, CIC has published Guidelines on how this program is to be administered:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/ ... 01-eng.pdf

5.33. Canadian interests: Reciprocal employment, C20 General guidelines R205(b)

R205(b) allows foreign workers to take up employment when reciprocal opportunities are provided for Canadian citizens to take temporary employment abroad. Exchange programs offer the opportunity of gaining international experience and allow the cultural exchange of both foreign and Canadian participants and their employers. Entry under reciprocal provisions should result in a neutral labour market impact.

There are formally-recognized reciprocal programs such as the DFAIT-managed International Experience Canada program (discussed below). However this provision also allows for admission of workers in other cases where reciprocity is demonstrated by the Canadian employer (or specific program administrator). Academic institutions may initiate exchanges under C20 as long as they are reciprocal, and licensing and medical requirements (if applicable) are met. A copy of the exchange agreement between the Canadian and foreign parties must be provided by the applicant, or a letter from the receiving Canadian institution, or work contract. Bona fide evidence of reciprocity will allow the officer to issue a work permit. The onus is on the institutions and/or applicants to demonstrate that reciprocity exists.

TIP: A useful starting point can be a company‘s ―Global Mobility Policy ― within their HR directives which may provide evidence that an exchange program is in place and, depending on the balance of bilateral flow, may indicate that it is reciprocal in practice.
Although it is not necessary that there be full reciprocity in practice within the same time frame (i.e. one for one exchange), there must at least be proof that there is or has been reciprocity, and the general order of magnitude of exchanges should be similar in order to demonstrate that, over a reasonable period of time (e.g. five years), there is a general neutral impact on the labour market. When the entities involved have no history of conducting reciprocal exchanges with Canada, it is reasonable to initially limit work permits to a small number of individuals and that subsequent work permits be issued only when reciprocity has been demonstrated.

Pilots of Foreign Airlines who come to Canada on Wet-Leases need no work permit to work in Canada:

186. A foreign national may work in Canada without a work permit
(s) as a member of a crew who is employed by a foreign company aboard a means of transportation that
(i) is foreign-owned and not registered in Canada, and
(ii) is engaged primarily in international transportation;

In plain English, this means that CIC will issue a certain number of Work Permits to Foreign pilots if that

would create or maintain reciprocal employment of Canadian citizens or permanent residents of Canada in other countries

In the same manner that Foreign Crews who come to Canada at the controls of Foreign Registered and Operated aircraft are not required to have Canadian Work Permits and are not counted by CIC in the Reciprocal Agreement, those Canadian Pilots who go overseas but who remain at the employ of Sunwing while flying Canadian Registered Sunwing Aircraft are not to be counted in the reciprocal agreement. They are not employed overseas, they are employed in Canada, by a Canadian employer, while flying a Canadian aircraft overseas, just like me when I do a flight overseas for Air Transat.

If the crews of Wet-Leased Canadian aircraft working overseas were to be counted by CIC as reciprocal pilots, they would also need to count, to arrive at a neutral market impact, all Foreign Crews working in Canada on Wet-Lease for Sunwing, which they do not, for they do not have any knowledge of these crews (who require no visas, and as such appear on no paperwork available to CIC)

So either CIC counts only pilots who go overseas to fly Foreign registered aircraft in both directions, or they count all pilots who go overseas to work in both directions, both those who fly Foreign registered aircraft and those who fly the Wet-leased aircraft. For the time being, the laws and regulations state that its the former.

What Sunwing has been doing in attempting to show reciprocity, is to count only those Foreign pilots who come to Canada to fly Canadian registered aircraft on one hand (those that require a Canadian Work Permit) and to count as reciprocity pilots, those Canadian Sunwing pilots who go work overseas at the controls of Wet-Leased Sunwing aircraft. This clearly cannot be.

Because it's "C" reg instead of "F" reg??? Who cares what paper works such as Licenses and work permit are issued !!

I care, because it's Canadian laws and regulations that are being trampled and abused by Sunwing at the expense of Canadian pilots, Canadian Taxpayers and competing Canadian Airlines.

[OPEC6-Heavy]

Gilles,

I care, because it's Canadian laws and regulations that are being trampled and abused by Sunwing at the expense of Canadian pilots, Canadian Taxpayers and competing Canadian Airlines.

If a Canadian Law is being broken then Someone needs to enforce this and charge Sunwing with breaking the Law!! If this is the case then lets see what corporate charges will be laid?? And do you really, Honestly care that

C20 General guidelines R205(b)

are being enforced or do you want to see Canadians continue to Fly "C" reg aircraft overseas, with the promise of more expansion and of course our ultimate goal of 1:1 ?
And what about the 180+ Canadian pilots who have well paid stable jobs all year round? No one every talks about them... Who cares right !! Believe me we pay more than our share of Taxes ( I'm sure your T4 was bigger than mine, you know), the Pilots from Europe don't pay the CRA for 4-5 months in country but they certainly contribute to the economy living here. And of course, last but not least the Taxes payed on Sunwing PROFIT more than makes up the short fall for lost employment income to us the "Canadian Tax payer".

[oh yeah baby]

First, once again, a magazine report is not a hard proof of profits... Porter was probably mention every year in this magazine until they finally open theirs books and investor realised they have lost money every year with credible accounting procedures.

Secondly, a 20% corporation taxe on suppose profit is nothing compare to the 45% taxes on salary plus benefit paid by the company to goverments.

Q1 was reported at 20m by a not credible interim result so it equals to 4 millions for goverments.

200 pilots at 150 000$ per year for 3 month = 30m x .45% = 13.5m + benefit (even if cie makes 0$)


You cant really count want they spend since canadian pilot will inject even more money into the economy.

[Takeoff OK]

My guess is that Sunwing is not making a profit at all. Like Hyundai in the early '80s (buy a brand new shiny piece-of-shit Pony for only $5555!!!) they are dumping on the market to increase their presence. Until an actual shareholder provides an internal quarterly statement on this forum, I will continue to believe they are losing money hand over fist.

Somebody prove me wrong, and I will happily eat my words.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Now can you please direct me to your posts on air transat hiring foreign pilots through Canjet? What is ALPA transat/Canjet doing about it?

FYI

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=82629

[OPEC6-Heavy]

"Takeoff OK"
Start eating your words...

"oh Yeah baby"
Your math is a little off, you need to convert Sterling Pounds to CAD first.

"Gillies"
Honestly I do appreciate your efforts in bring this topic to peoples attention, mainly the Government but it needs to be factual and civilized. Not Pilot hype and hysteria. We certainly have a common goal in not having companies over step the bounds of hiring Foreigners in excess of 1:1 for permanent or long periods of time. Keep up the good work.

[Phoenix_Rising]

For the pilots interesting in applying to Sunwing under the Seasonal Pilot program.

Here are some questions to consider

1) What are the Terms and Conditions of your contract and how do they compare to the other pilots employed by Sunwing
2) How does the bond work
3) Will you be part of the current Seniority list
4) Will this contract lead into a full time position
5) Will you be expected/forced to deploy in the summers and if so under what conditions.
6) What Company will you be working for and paid by ..... is it directly Sunwing Airlines.
7) Will you be part of the union or working outside the union.
8 ) what is the current relationship between management and the pilot group.

I encourage all pilots to do their research and if possible talk to current Sunwing Pilots !!!!

[Gino Under]

My solution would be to simply NOT bother to apply to Sunwing. Ignor them. Don't even bother with them.
If a sufficient number of Canadian pilots didn't apply or waste their time applying, it would change the focus and might even create staff shortages for them.
While ignoring SW, continue to pressure the government regarding the use of foreign crews.
Supplementary to that effort, avoid using their services for vacation or travel and make sure to inform your family and friends how unsafe and unreliable their operation is.

Gino Under

[ea306]

Those truly are angry hateful irrational words Mr. Gino...

So let's get this straight:
You are angry because Foriegn Pilots are taking Canadian jobs? Yes? No? If yes: OK...I get that.

As a solution you suggest that Canadians should not accept employment with Sunwing. What do you think this might accomplish? Could this not only strengthen the argument that there is a shortage of qualified Canadians to take the jobs? Is that fixing the problem for Canadian Pilots? I thought the objective is to have more Canadians flying here in Canada no? Is this not what all the noise is about?

You say to spread the word (lies) that the operation is unsafe. Based on what? SunWing's safety record? Really?

What motivates these tactics that you suggest to employ? Is it to create more Canadian stable and viable long term employment??....or to simply wipeout Sunwing as a competitor in the market place? You are saying not to accept employment at SunWing. You are saying get the Government to shut SunWing down. You are saying get your family to boycott SunWing.

Are you really this narrow minded or are you just simply angry? If you are simply frustrated and angry....fair enough: Be angry.

It seems as though you are less interested in things being done as correctly and fairly as possible and more interested in seeing SunWing go out of business because you have decided that you do not like the company.

Let me remind you that there are many very good and well paid jobs here at SunWing and I for one appreciate my job here.

[av8tor_assrope]

Mr Gino,

All I can say is wow. Your comments really show the type of person you are. I for one hope to never share a flight deck with you. Your stupidity is only exceeded by your ignorance!

P.S. Do continue to tell people not to apply to Sunwing. Who would want to work for a company where a guy coming off a King Air, as a first year F/O can make 6 figures with a deployment.

[Takeoff OK]

Mr Gino,

All I can say is wow. Your comments really show the type of person you are. I for one hope to never share a flight deck with you. Your stupidity is only exceeded by your ignorance!

P.S. Do continue to tell people not to apply to Sunwing. Who would want to work for a company where a guy coming off a King Air, as a first year F/O can make 6 figures with a deployment.

I have a feeling Gino has had a few and is on a rant. No way I can criticize him for that as I am all too often guilty of the same.

Boycott applying? No way. We need documented proof of Canadians applying and not getting hired.

Family/friends boycott? Absolutely. Sunwing will be getting no future business from anyone I care about.

Six figures? What percentage of your new hire FO list is making the 100k+ on these deployments? Honestly, how many?

I don't want anyone to go out of business because I believe in fair competition and I would rather not see another batch of layoffs anywhere. But if your company's underhanded practices are going to lower the bar so far that it results in my brothers hitting the street...? Well, you know the saying: "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."

Why do you think the AC guys just got raped? In no small part due to the fact that a sizable chunk of their market has been stolen by Scumwing's dumping. You'll disagree, but we all know it's true.

Please, please, please get your pilot group together, grow some collective f*cking balls, and stop the outsourcing to foreigners! Just do it! You may be making some great offshore premiums, but it will be short-lived. The very system that's giving you these temporary gains will be used to usurp your relevance in the end. If you can't defend your own flying, then you (once again) are just part of the problem.

Wake up.

[ea306]

Most of the FOs do make six figures at Sunwing. Why do you find this so hard to believe?
Some do it even without deployment.... For most, it requires deployment.

As for directing this issue towards the pilots to resolve... A little misguided. Suddenly it is the Pilots of SunWing that are the problem? Really? Think again....The pilot group does not have a say on what the tour operator decides.

Meanwhile the improvements from last year are there in that Sunwing has hired more Canadian Pilots. Market share has grown for the tour operator and they have decided to use wet leased aircraft to meet the demand from that growth.

Keeping Canadian Jobs in Canada is a concern we can all agree on. That is the point. That is where the focus should be.

[Takeoff OK]

Most of the FOs do make six figures at Sunwing.
Some do it even without deployment.... For most, it requires deployment.

As for directing this towards the pilots to resolve... A little misguided. The pilot group does not have a say on what the tour operator decides.

So you have no scope language? Didn't you guys just join the Teamsters, or CAW, or some other bullshit aviation branch of a non-aviation union? Stop pleading impotence and get working on it. Unlike Big Red, you guys have the ability to strike. Once again: If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Do you think all of the anger directed at Sunwing by the rest of the industry is unjustified? Do you think people honestly don't understand what's going on? Stop trying to placate and paint the truth with rose-coloured glasses. We KNOW what is happening, as do you. And since it is unlikely that the government will ever do anything about it, it is up to you.

You want my friends and family to buy your packages? Then level the field. Otherwise, GFY.

[ea306]

Neither you or I have a say or control on the timeline of things Mr. Congeniality... The CAW is working to protect the interests of the SunWing Pilot Group. This is a contract year.

You fight your interests via the avenues you have at your disposal. This pilot group has enough to look after besides caring for your interests. Mutual concerns by all pilot groups may effect change. I would like to think that some of the improvements we have seen this year are as a result of the pressures from internal as well as external sources. Rose colored glasses? Not really. Change takes time. But at least so far there is some change. Let's see if it continues.

I did not realize that AC has been impacted by SunWing. I would of thought that the continued growth and success of WestJet might of been more of a factor. Thanks for your insightful words.

Show some class and keep the discussion civil. There is no need to attack individuals. This is something that is hurting all of us as pilots. To say that the SunWing Pilot Group are at fault is irrational. What do you know that is going on behind the scenes? You expect people that know to broadcast it on this forum? Stop and think. We are all on the same side.

Now have a nice cold beer and relax!

[bmcrobb]

It amazes me to read some of these posts from all of you armchair critics who think they know
every little in and out of how this industry works and have all the answers of how to fix it but
when you start ranting on about the airline being unsafe and passing that word on to family
and friends so as not to book with Sunwing in the future, that is where you cross the line.
You are now attacking those that you claim to be fighting for, Canadian pilots, unsafe and
unreliable are words directed at me, a Canadian pilot, but yes, a Sunwing pilot.
Further to your comment about our non-aviation union, again, from your armchair you
have all the answers. I'm not going to delve into that. Our union is working it's balls
off to address a number of issues and our CBA is currently up as of Dec. 1st., and for
those of us who know how much work they are putting in and how big their balls really
are, they have are respect and support.
Now,.......go sit in the corner and think about what you've said.

[Gino Under]

I have yet to meet a pilot, let alone a Canadian pilot, who doesn't think he's/she's anything but safe. This is not necessarily the issue but I know there are Canadian pilots who are both and there just might be the odd one working for almost any Canadian carrier. Is Sunwing an exception?

If Sunwing (management) and their tour operator puppet masters continue to bullshit the government to screw Canadian pilots then I'm quite comfortable and willing to do my part by bullshitting neighbours, family, and friends with regard to their MO. The politicians don't seem willing to light a fire or do anything more than pass the buck.

By the way, as far as Sunwing being a safe operation goes, hard to quantify or qualify no matter what side of opinion you're on. For me, it's not about the smoking hole it's about a much broader silence within that's rarely in the public's sight. It's unlikely any airline will do its laundry in public and I'm sure Sunwing is no different.

With apology to the good employees at Sunwing, because of their management, I couldn't care less whether they went out of business or not. History has shown they'd only be replaced by another anyway.

And historically, isn't that the way of the Canadian charter airline industry?

Gino Under

[bmcrobb]

I mean OUR respect, not drunk, too much coffee