Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... ns-745.htm
After all parties involved have agreed to a final version of the RIAS and the proposed amendment to the CARs, they are approved by TC executives, the Deputy Minister (DM), and the Minister, and are sent to the TBS to be presented to the Treasury Board Committee for approval. Once approved, both documents are turned over to the Canada Gazette where the proposed regulations and the RIAS will be published in Canada Gazette, Part I (CGI) for a consultation period of 30 days. The Canada Gazette is the official newspaper of the government of Canada. CGI presents proposed regulations, government notices, and appointments that are required by statute to be published so as to disseminate information to the public.

Comments or dissents to the proposed regulation are returned to the Regulatory Affairs Division, who will address them. The RIAS and proposed regulation will be amended to answer these comments and dissents, and sent one more time for approval by TC executives, the DM, and the Minister.

The proposed regulation is then returned to the TBS for re-approval by the Committee members, and then moved forward to be registered by the Clerk of the Privy Council, under the authorization of the Governor in Council. It will appear in the Canada Gazette, Part II (CGII) to give notice to Canadians that what started as an NPA, and became a proposed regulation, is now a regulation.
I am certain that all Airlines are attempting to dilute this NPA as I write these words. ALPA and ACPA are also probably in the thick of it. But ALPA and ACPA both represent 705 pilots only.

What about the rest of you ? Unless you speak up, no one speaks on your behalf.
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TCAS II
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by TCAS II »

I think this proposal is a great step forward in improving safety and reducing fatigue. It's about time Canada came inline with the rest of the aviation world.

By the way, ALPA doesn't only represent 705 ops, they also represent 704. I don't see why ALPA or ACPA would be wanting to fight a proposal that will improve the safety of its pilots...
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

TCAS II wrote:I think this proposal is a great step forward in improving safety and reducing fatigue. It's about time Canada came inline with the rest of the aviation world.

By the way, ALPA doesn't only represent 705 ops, they also represent 704. I don't see why ALPA or ACPA would be wanting to fight a proposal that will improve the safety of its pilots...
Your are correct about 704, my error.

For the rest, I misspoke or you misunderstood. I did not mean that ACPA or ALPA were fighting the proposal. I just meant to say that they were actively involved in the process and that pilots who were not represented by ALPA and ACPA or who are not operating in an environment for which ALPA and ACPA speak for, should strive to make themselves heard while its still time.
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timel
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by timel »

Gilles is right, there is a window open to pilots, pass it on to your co-workers.


For pilots who wish to testify about their fatigue experiences:

CARRAC@tc.gc.ca
Hi,
Absolutely, we welcome personal experiences as part of the input we are collecting and have received a few personal testimonies from pilots to date. This email is the correct address and feel free to leave out your employer if that makes you more comfortable.

Regards,

Melanie


Mélanie Drouin
A/Manager, Civil Aviation Regulations Advisory Council | Gestionnaire par intérim, Conseil consultatif sur la réglementation aérienne canadienne
Transport Canada | Transports Canada
Place de Ville, 330 Sparks Street, AARBH
Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0N5
melanie.drouin@tc.gc.ca
Telephone | Téléphone 613-990-1415
Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada
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Flyboycanada80
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by Flyboycanada80 »

If anyone is curious to know what your companies think of this here is thier response sent directly to the minister:

http://www.cbaamatters.com/wp-content/u ... posal1.pdf


It's worth the read, the college of pilots need to get up off its ass and lobby the government and step up to support pilots. If they did anything that resembled work for us instead of just asking for members and fees they wouldn't have a hard time getting membership up.
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Flyboycanada80
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by Flyboycanada80 »

Here is what the companies are doing to fight this:

http://www.cbaamatters.com/wp-content/u ... posal1.pdf

This document was sent right to the minister. They are using every trick in the book to stop the changes.
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TCAS II
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by TCAS II »

The government should ask the pilot who've operated for these operations directly about duty changes to prevent fatigue. It's not these actual members of the association that are doing the actual flying while fatigued.

"ONLY suitable for 705 operations"? That's because most 705 operations would be closer to abiding by the new regulations to begin with. The 703/704 operators are the ones who also need the regulation to prevent businesses from exploiting their pilots. The operations might be diverse; however, the human bodies working in these 703, 704, 705 operations aren't. Pilots are human. How they can claim that fatigue isn't a safety issue? Geez.
Seems this article is simply a question of safety vs profit... The only damage to commercial and business communities is to their pocketbook.

Shortage of experiences pilots?That's because who would stay under outdated working conditions? There isn't a shortage of pilots, their argument doesn't stand. Train new pilots and experience will come.

The effect on competition in Canada? I don't think so. These changes will have an improved effect on domestic operations. How are US carriers going to be providing services for northern, remote and Aboriginal commutes, domestic air operators, aerial application, natural resources, MEDEVAC etc... they aren't!

Shouldn't holes in the "Swiss cheese" model leading to accidents be filled? Isn't fatigue a factor that should be considered? Safety vs profit.
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A346Dude
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by A346Dude »

spaner wrote: If it did, if the truth of fatigue VS performance ment anything in the real world of Canadian aviation regulation; pilots would be legislated, restricted, to working an 8-eight hour day. Not a Flight-Duty-Day, Not Duty-Hours, but a "WORK-DAY".
An 8 hour duty day? How would that possibly work in Canadian aviation?

There are tons of trades in safety-sensitive environments that work 12 hour shifts (hell, some firefighters work 24 hour shifts). I could certainly see reducing down to 12 hours, but to me 8 is just a total non-starter.
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AirMail
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by AirMail »

Flyboycanada80 wrote:Here is what the companies are doing to fight this:

http://www.cbaamatters.com/wp-content/u ... posal1.pdf

This document was sent right to the minister. They are using every trick in the book to stop the changes.

I like how the companies are using a doom and gloom tactic. Basically painting that all aviation activity will cease. Well dear companies, you've paid those poor pilots crap wages and conditions as there is always someone to take the bait. I say to you that if you can't do the flying your operation employs upon, I'm sure there is a company who will fulfill that void you've left driving you out while they too continue to pay poor wages and condition. Circle of aviation life.

But in all honesty, it isn't hard to get the clients/passengers/contracts changed/amended to reflect the change in regs. Instead of wasting resources on fighting regulation, how about using those resources on improving safety and working conditions. Maybe you'll find there's profit to be made when not having to dole out money to repair or replace aircraft due to fatigue.
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intake
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by intake »

A346 Dude, Why is CAN Aviation different to other parts of the world where 8 duty limits are the norm. Not only is 8 hrs the limit but they get 2-3 times the salary for it. Just saying......
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ahramin
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by ahramin »

I see that BC Aviation Council signed on there. A search of their member directory includes:

Vancouver Airport Authority
Abbotsford Int’l Airport
Aeroinfo Systems, A Boeing Company
Air Cadet League of Canada
BCIT Aerospace
Fraser Valley Regional District
Nav Canada
University of Fraser Valley Aerospace Programs
Pacific Flying Club
Victoria Flying Club

I'm planning on asking several of these organizations why they want to keep Canadian aviation fatigue rules in the dark ages. If you know someone at some of these organizations I would suggest doing the same.
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TrailerParkBoy
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by TrailerParkBoy »

A346Dude wrote:
spaner wrote: If it did, if the truth of fatigue VS performance ment anything in the real world of Canadian aviation regulation; pilots would be legislated, restricted, to working an 8-eight hour day. Not a Flight-Duty-Day, Not Duty-Hours, but a "WORK-DAY".
An 8 hour duty day? How would that possibly work in Canadian aviation?

There are tons of trades in safety-sensitive environments that work 12 hour shifts (hell, some firefighters work 24 hour shifts). I could certainly see reducing down to 12 hours, but to me 8 is just a total non-starter.

How often do you start your day at 4am and fly 6 legs in a 12 hr day? Try doing it 4 days in a row!
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A346Dude
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by A346Dude »

intake wrote:A346 Dude, Why is CAN Aviation different to other parts of the world where 8 duty limits are the norm. Not only is 8 hrs the limit but they get 2-3 times the salary for it. Just saying......
Well we're obviously a lot more spread out. I don't know if that makes the difference but it is certainly a factor.

I can't imagine being essentially timed out after a leg as short as YYZ-YVR. It would require a significant increase in number of days worked per month, hotel stays, and probably more crew bases. The cost increases would be substantial and the flying public already complains enough about high airfares.

I guess I just don't buy the idea that there's a steep drop off in competency after only 8 hours. It's really not that long a time and in my opinion the cost increase would be harmful to the industry.
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teacher
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by teacher »

WOW!!! That submission is so full of bullshit it's unreal!!!!!! Competitive disadvantage? Union rules applied to non union carriers? Aren't the Canadian rules less restrictive than the Europien and Amercian flight and duty time regulations?

These companies have gotten away with near murder for years. Garbage pay, crazy long hours archaic duty time rules NOT based on science and they wonder why there's less pilots to fill the seats. Pay properly and don't grind them until they can't stay awake, seems like a simple concept.

There will be a level playing field for all players with these rules. The doom and gloom is completely inaccurate.
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Rockie
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by Rockie »

teacher wrote:WOW!!! That submission is so full of bullshit it's unreal!!!!!! Competitive disadvantage? Union rules applied to non union carriers? Aren't the Canadian rules less restrictive than the Europien and Amercian flight and duty time regulations?
It's the same tried and true bulls**t they use every time there are proposed amendments to the F&DT regulations. Nothing new here because it always works. The last time there was any kind of change to the regs was 16 years ago, and they amounted to pretty much nothing despite the optimism accompanying the proposed changes before industry got their hands on them.

The optimism this time around is equally misplaced in my realistically jaded opinion.
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timel
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by timel »

AirMail wrote: But in all honesty, it isn't hard to get the clients/passengers/contracts changed/amended to reflect the change in regs. Instead of wasting resources on fighting regulation, how about using those resources on improving safety and working conditions. Maybe you'll find there's profit to be made when not having to dole out money to repair or replace aircraft due to fatigue.
Very true.

There are big egos out there who will not to concede an inch to the lazy whining pilots.

As a result of the bias on the part of the Working Group leaders, and Transport Canada senior
management’s refusal to consider our objections, an NPA has been produced that will damage
large segments of the commercial and business aviation community in Canada along with the
businesses and communities they serv, in Canada and abroad, including:

 Northern, remote, and Aboriginal communities – many of whom rely on air
transportation to provide food and medical care – often using air as their only form
of access. Operators will be forced to pass-on the addition cost of the new
regulations to northern and remote consumers and territorial and provincial
governments
 Scheduled domestic air operators of all sizes
 Aerial application operations in the agriculture sector
 The resource sector of the Canadian economy
 The commercial MEDEVAC and EMS community
 The oil & gas industry, including operations conducted in the oil sands area
 Utility companies that rely on air transportation to service and repair the power grid
 Businesses that depend on the on-demand segment of the commercial aviation
community to conduct their operations in Canada and internationally
 The mining community
 The tourism industry
 WildFire-Fighting Agencies across Canada
Mining industry is obsessed with safety, they put huge amounts of money into that, this is horse crap.
Most medevac can be done within reasonable duties from what I know.
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Skyhunter
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by Skyhunter »

So.... 1000 hours a year. Seems low to me for some types of flying and high for others... think a total for year is not appropriate without context to the type of flying. Example.... I had a month where I flew (including overtime) 12 days.. and 102 hours. Most of these flights were single day turns out of YYZ to someplace warm... worth about 10 hours credit for a 13 hour duty day. It was not the littlest bit fatiguing. In fact one of the easiest months I have worked in my life, and yet if I did that for a year would bread 1200 hours. When I was in the military if I had flown a 1000 hours in a year while instructing on the Tutor... I would be very fatigued! ( I am pretty sure would be same for civilian instructor). One size fits all rules are hard and I in think in this instance a bit unreasonable. It should fit they type of flying one is doing. And note.. this could apply in different operations , 703, 704,705. The number of ops you are flying under does not necessarily reflect the type of flying one is doing. There has to be a better answer I would think.

Question though... how would this affect tow pilots...ie Air Cadets... take of landings a segment.. could a pilot only be able to do 10 tows for the day and be done? That would be pretty dumb if true.
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ahramin
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by ahramin »

The advisory committee made it clear in their recommendations that the 1000 hour limit was included to harmonize with other regulators and had no scientific safety case.

Air Cadets are not a commercial operation and would not be affected by these regs.
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avmed12
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by avmed12 »

Perfect for the college to take on - we need data and a unified voice in Ottawa. Unions / pilot associations have their own mandates and may not have the resources to properly respond.

Canada is in the stone-ages with the current regulations and companies use the REGS to their benefit minus the legacy / unionized carriers (which puts them at a competitive disadvantage). There is some middle-ground to what was proposed but the companies and Transport seem to be relying on SMS and internal audits to govern everything and that just doesn't fly when pilots are up against the REGS... pretty hard to get anywhere SMS'ing fatigue when it's legal.

In my opinion, the response document seems to have ATAC written all over it with other associations signing on "blindly" without talking to their members.

The sad truth is that crew fatigue will never become a problem until it causes a problem.
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by AOW »

I am going to start off by saying that I am not opposed to change. I recognize that the existing regulations leave far too much chance for extreme fatigue. But overall, the proposed regulation is too complicated. There are too many different limitations for a crew member, especially one working in an on-demand charter operation, to keep track of. It is obvious that these proposed regulations were written with scheduled airlines in mind. There are many of us out there that do not fly for a scheduled airline, and those operations are quite different from those who know exactly where and when they are flying a month in advance. I fly in an on demand charter environment, including government, private and air ambulance charters. Some of these trips are booked well in advance, but others, by the nature of the type of work, are not scheduled until the last minute. I enjoy the variety that this provides, but it does leave an ambiguity of where and when I am going to finish my day. About 99% of the time, I end up back at home base, in my own bed, at the end of the day, but there have been cases where I have run out of duty many miles from home, using a "simple" 14 hour duty day calculation. Another facet of my job involves taking people some place, waiting for them to do their jobs, then bringing them home. Sometimes they are quick, sometimes they are slow, and I have to make sure that they know the cut off time after which we cannot get home within our duty day.

Here are some of my comments regarding the proposed regulations:
FDP.JPG
FDP.JPG (96.39 KiB) Viewed 5850 times
Table 1 from proposed 700.20 includes 12 different FDP start periods, 5 of which are only 30 minutes long (5 others are 2:00, while the other two are 5:30 and 6:00). There is room here to simplify the regulation by reducing the number of changes.
The reduction of duty time based on number of sectors flown has a much larger impact on smaller aircraft operators, as we are the most likely to do multiple short legs. It is not unusual for our aircraft to fly 8 sectors in 5 hours, and VFR sightseeing, glider towing, parachute dropping, and floatplane operations will likely do even more. At the same time, there is no change in FDP limits for operations doing only 1 or 2 sectors per day: if the difference in limit between doing 3 sectors and 4 sectors is 0.5 hrs, shouldn’t a similar difference apply between 2 sectors and 3 sectors, etc.
Proposed 700.28 wrote: No air operator shall assign a flight crew member to duty and no flight crew member shall accept such an assignment, where the total duration of duty periods to which a flight crew member is assigned will exceed:
(1) 1,928 duty hours in any 365 consecutive days;
(2) 190 duty hours in any 28 consecutive days; and,
(3) 60 duty hours in any 7 consecutive days when using Time Free from Duty Option 1 found in Subsection 700.xx; or,
(4) 70 duty hours in any 7 consecutive days when using Time Free from Duty Option 2 found in Subsection 700.xx and the air operator shall not:
(a) assign early, late or night duties to the flight crew member;
(b) schedule the flight crew member to duty periods greater than 12 hours duration; and
(c) permit a flight crew member to exceed a maximum of 24 duty hours in any 2 consecutive days.
(1) is far too restrictive. 1928 duty hours in 365 days is less than what a “normal” full-time hourly employee will work in a year, before any overtime. 1928 hours per year averages to just over 148 hours in 28 days, yet the 28 day limit is 190 hours (2), which is a much more reasonable number. (4) (a) is too restrictive. Time free from Duty Option 2 should be enough of a mitigation, without restricting early, late and night duties. While on the topic of early duty, the cutoff time of 06:59 is too late. 05:59 would be a much more logical end to “early duty”. 700.28(4)(b) and (c) are also more restrictive than need be.
Split Duty
700.31
(1) The maximum FDP may be increased where the air operator provides the flight crew member with a break
during the FDP (split duty). The air operator shall provide a break in accordance with the following conditions:
(a) A break on the ground within the FDP shall have a minimum duration of 60 consecutive minutes in the suitable accommodation.
(b) The break will begin after the flight crew member is in the suitable accommodation.
(c) The break excludes travel time to and from the suitable accommodation.
(d) The maximum FDP may be increased by an amount of time equal to:
(i) 100% of the duration of the break during the hours of 00:00 to 05:59 at the flight crew member‘s acclimatized time;
(ii) 50% of the duration of the break during the hours of 06:00 to 23:59 at the flight crew member‘s acclimatized time; or,
(iii) In the case of short-term re-planning due to unforeseen operational circumstances, 50% of the duration of the break; and,
(e) 45 minutes of the break in the suitable accommodation does not count towards the increase in the flight duty period.
(2) In the case of a FDP assignment, that includes a split duty, following a Standby assignment;
(a) The flight crew member’s SDP may be increased by a maximum of 2 hours if a break is provided in accordance with the criteria above.
(b) This FDP is limited to 2 sectors following the break.
Proposed 700.31(1) is an improvement on the present split duty regulations, however (2)(b) is too restrictive. There should not be a restriction on number of sectors flown following the break, as SDP restrictions should provide sufficient limits on fatigue following a break.
Standby
700.32
(1) Where an air operator assigns a flight crew member to Standby, the air operator shall:
(a) notify the flight crew member in advance of the start time, end time, and nature [location - at home or hotel] of the SAP;
(b) notify the flight crew member:
(i) at least 12 hours prior to the beginning of the SAP, if the assigned SAP does not infringe upon the WOCL; or
(ii) at least 32 hours prior to the beginning of the SAP, if the assigned SAP does infringe upon the WOCL.
(2) The air operator shall not shift the designated SAP by more than:
(i) 2 hours earlier or 4 hours later than the preceding SAP; and
(ii) a total of 8 hours from the original SAP start time in any 7 consecutive days unless the flight crew member is provided with 2 consecutive days free from all duties within the 7 consecutive days.
(3) If the shift of the start time of the SAP crosses 02:00, the air operator shall not introduce an additional SAP shift unless the flight crew member is provided with 2 consecutive days free from all duties prior to beginning a subsequently shifted SAP.
(4) The air operator shall not shift the start time of the SAP into the flight crew member‘s WOCL without notifying the flight crew member of the SAP at least 24 hours prior to the beginning of the SAP.
(5) The air operator shall not assign a flight crew member to a FDP outside of the aggregate maximum SDP unless:
(a) the air operator provides the flight crew member with minimum 24 hours notice of the assignment, prior to the beginning of the FDP;
(b) The air operator shall not provide this notification to the flight crew member between the hours of 22:30 to 07:30; and
(c) the air operator shall not assign the flight crew member to any duties from the time of the notification until the beginning of the FDP.
(6) When assigning a flight crew member to Standby, the air operator shall:
(a) not assign a flight crew member to a SAP that exceeds 14 hours;
(b) after a flight crew member is assigned to a FDP, the SAP ends;
(c) provide the flight crew member with a minimum rest period of 10 hours between SAPs;
(d) limit the maximum duration of a SDP for un-augmented flight crew members as follows:
(i) for SAPs starting between 0200 and 1759 the maximum SDP is 18 hours;
(ii) for SAPs starting between 1800 and 1859 the maximum SDP is 17 hours;
(iii) for SAPs starting between 1900 and 2059 the maximum SDP is 16 hours;
(iv) for SAPs starting between 2100 and 2259 the maximum SDP is 15 hours; and
(v) for SAPs starting between 2300 and 0159 the maximum SDP is 14 hours.
(e) Calculate the SDP limits for augmented flight crew members as follows:
(i) the maximum SDP for a flight crew augmented with one additional flight crew member is 20 hours and with a class 1 or 2 rest facility; or
(ii) the maximum SDP for a flight crew augmented with two additional flight crew members is 22 hours and with class 1 or 2 rest facilities.
(7) When the SAP begins between 02:00 and 05:59 (flight crew member‘s acclimatized time), the air operator may increase the maximum SDP by 50% of the time period between 02:00 and 05:59 that the flight crew member was not disturbed by the air operator, to a maximum of 2 hours.
(8) The air operator shall not assign the flight crew member to a flight duty that exceeds the lesser of either the SDP maximum or the FDP maximum from Table 1 (Subsection 700.20).
(9) The air operator shall count all time spent on standby by a flight crew member as duty at a rate of 33% for the calculation of cumulative duty limitations.
(10) Transition from SDP to SAP
(a) Following a SDP and subsequent rest period, the air operator may have the flight crew member resume the previously scheduled SAP in progress.
(b) When a flight crew member resumes a previously scheduled SAP in progress, as long as the end time of the SAP remains the same as the previously scheduled SAP end time, the SAP is not considered to have shifted. The SDP limit is calculated from the start of the previously scheduled SAP.
(c) When the air operator wishes to change the start time of the SAP, all provisions related to the shifting of the start time of the SAP apply.
Proposed 700.32 is possibly the best planned section of the NPA. It demonstrates a reasonable balance between operating efficiency and fatigue management. It is still incredibly complicated, but at least has some logic to it.
Rest Periods
700.34 The air operator shall provide a flight crew member with basic minimum rest as follows:
(1) minimum rest period at home base: the minimum rest period provided before undertaking an FDP starting at home base shall be 12 hours;
(2) minimum rest period away from home base: the minimum rest period provided before undertaking a flight duty period starting away from home base shall be 10 hours in the suitable accommodation;
(3) where the air operator provides a suitable accommodation to the flight crew at home base, the away from home base provision (Subsection (2) may be applied (10 hours in the suitable accommodation); and
(4) where the duration of a duty period exceeds the maximum permitted FDP plus 1 hour (with the exception of positioning), the subsequent rest period shall be at least as long as the preceding duty period.
Proposed 700.34(1) is too restrictive. They seem to assume that everybody in Canadian aviation works out of YYZ and lives in Peterborough/London/Bracebridge, and is going to spend 2 hours in traffic getting to and from work. Many of us chose to live close to our places of work, in fact my company requires all pilots, by contract, to live within 30 minutes of the airport. These crews should be able to acquire sufficient rest at home base with only 10 hours free from duty, which has always been my company's policy anyways.
Consecutive Duties Infringing on the WOCL
700.38
(1) FDPs are considered consecutive when scheduled without an intervening local night‘s rest.
(2) The air operator shall, following 3 consecutive FDPs that infringe upon the hours between 02:00 and 05:59, provide the flight crew member with a local night‘s rest;
(3) The break resulting from a split duty may be used to increase the FDP length as per the Split Duty provisions (Subsection 700.31); or
(4) The air operator may schedule a flight crew member to 5 consecutive FDPs that infringe upon the hours between 02:00 and 05:59 if:
(a) each FDP includes a split duty with a scheduled break that provides the flight crew member with a minimum of 3 hours opportunity for rest in the suitable accommodation and the flight crew member is provided with this break;
(b) following the 4th or 5th consecutive FDPs that infringe upon the hours between 02:00 and 05:59, provide the flight crew member with a minimum period of 56 consecutive hours free from duty; and
(c) the break on each of the duties infringing the WOCL shall not be used to increase the FDP as per Split Duty provisions (Subsection 700.31).
Proposed 700.38 is going to have a large effect on overnight cargo and air ambulance operations. Many crews who work these overnight shifts acclimate to that schedule, and have less performance degradation than others during WOCL operations. 700.38(2) should be increased to at least 4 consecutive FDPs, to allow for longer pairings, with corresponding longer time off between flight assignments, and fewer swaps between day and night flying. (4) is helpful for freight operations and continuous duty scheduled operations, but does not adequately address the night air ambulance operations that do not usually provide an opportunity for rest in suitable accommodation.



Anyways: how about this for a solution to some of the complexity: Overall, there are a lot of similarities between the NPA and the US’s 14 CFR part 117. As this type of duty limitation seems to be the industry wide answer to fatigue management, perhaps the best way to simplify the tracking process for operators is to simply adopt identical limitations to FAR 117. This way any tracking tools developed for US airlines can be used by Canadian operators without the cost and complexity of developing CARs specific software and tools. FAR 117 only has 10 FDP start times, simplifying the chart slightly, but has 7 columns, including 1 and 2 sector duty limits. The net result is fairly similar to the NPA, with some periods slightly more restrictive, and some slightly less restrictive.
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by Rockie »

Latest newsletter from ACPA proves my cynicism on this issue was entirely justified. Nothing is going to happen and now ACPA doesn't even have a voice anymore. ACPA's recommendations will not be considered (told that outright by the DG), but ACPA is still requested to attend the meetings, obviously so Transport Canada can say ACPA (and probably the same story with ALPA) were part of the process after they do industry's bidding yet again.

Higher up the ladder of unaccountability, I strongly suspect the DG (Martin Eley) was given political direction to disregard final submissions from all but industry representatives in this final stage so that the recommendations he gives to the minister immediately following represent only those views. That way the minister is covered as he can now say he was only acting on the recommendations of his senior staff. Martin Eley - like all blindly subservient civil servants - will take whatever heat results.

Total farce.
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florch
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by florch »

AOW

Respectfully, almost no one acclimatizes entirely to working nights. Most people switch to more of a day sched on their days off to spend time with friends and family, and almost every cargo pilot I know will tell you that when they get the occasional long day flight it is a a good break. They'll say that a 14 hour day is easier than an 8 or 9 hour night. Anecdotal, but that's my experience.
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florch
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by florch »

Letter to CARAC:

To whom it may concern:

My experiences regarding fatigue having flown mostly 705 ops doing charter and cargo work for 13,000+ hours:

1000 hours a year is not an important number. Work hours are more important than flight hours. For example, I had a month where I flew 12 days and 105 hours. Most of these flights were single day turns out of YYZ to a sunshine destination without leaving my time zone. It is worth about 10 hours credit for a 13 hour duty day. This is a good month, productive for both the airline and the pilot, and not fatiguing. As a pilot you have 18 or 19 days off to get rested for your 12 days of flying. Reducing hours for this type of flying will cause pilots to work more days, and be away from home more on layovers which is stressful to work life balance. If non-pilots don't understand they need to ask us what we would like and what would work for us.
What is fatiguing is shifting sleep patterns and red eye flights. If I were to work an afternoon flight which went from 1 PM to 2 AM, that would be OK, and not particularly fatiguing. I could also work an early morning flight from 5 AM to 6 PM, and this would not be particularly fatiguing either. But if I had to work that afternoon flight and get to bed at 4 AM and then sleep a second time in order to get up at 4 AM to get ready for work the morning shift, that causes problems. You can't sleep twice in 24 hours!

Regarding nights, almost no one acclimatizes entirely to working nights. Most people switch to more of a day schedule on their days off to spend time with friends and family, and almost every cargo pilot I know will tell you that when they get the occasional long day flight it is a a good break. They'll say that a 14 hour day is easier than an 8 or 9 hour night. Anecdotal, but that's my experience. It is better to work multiple night shifts in a row and then have a block of days off.
Finally, I see that no one at transport has cared to consult the pilots for input. That is insulting and likely to result in a system that causes fatigue in one instance and is overly restrictive in another. Please put out a survey to the stakeholders that actually understand the issue!
Sincerely,
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by goingnowherefast »

I know TC surveyed operators. Did they actually not bother surveying pilots? I only assumed they had.
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HiFlyChick
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Re: Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Regs

Post by HiFlyChick »

You're right on the money, AOC - I often have a group of people who have say 4 legs planned (each less than 1 hr) and who anticipate being only an hour or so at each intermediate stop. So looking at that chart, if they get delayed, I don't know if I'd even be able to answer them whether we'd be able to complete the day.

And an 8 hr work day...?! So if I have a flight that averages 3.5 hrs each way, I can't take it because the combined time of pre-flight and turn-around at destination with a bit of taxiing or waiting 15 min for fuel puts me over the 8.

I agree that fatigue is a problem that needs to be addressed, but I feel tired imagining trying to figure out that chart as my day progresses....
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