Road to the Middle East.

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Mr. North
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Road to the Middle East.

Post by Mr. North »

In today's market, what would be the best route to take that would see you get on with one of the large Middle Eastern airlines? I've heard the minimum requirements vary quite a bit. From lots of multi-PIC to 705 over 12,500, to jet.

With the race to the bottom happening over here, I guess what im wondering is if the ME is a viable option for those whose next move would be to a low paying regional. Or do you have to take that regional job and gain command before the door to the middle east is even open?
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Re: Road to the Middle East.

Post by Panama Jack »

I can tell you only based on what is happening now, and assuming you are not a local (ie. Bahraini, Emirati, Omani, Qatari, Saudi).

For expats currently all the companies require the type rating plus significant amount of time on the applicable type. A number of airline failures abroad, attractive conditions, plus a very favorable immigration scheme allows the companies to fill these positions with no problem with applicants from pretty much anywhere in the World.

In the past, a few of the companies have been willing to hire non-type rated applicants but they have required airline experience with time on turboprops or jets with a MGTOW of greater than 10,000kg. The command time is not so much an issue.

I don't expect this trend to change in the forseeable future.
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Last edited by Panama Jack on Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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loopa
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Re: Road to the Middle East.

Post by loopa »

PJ has some great advice.

Here's my insight as well, albeit I don't live there, I do have connections that confirm the below.

Qatar Airways
Qatar Airways is looking for fast track to command first officers. It's ideal for guys that have 4000 hours time on a turboprop, irrespective of the MTOW based on this job ad.

Then there's the direct entry non type rated first officer (which isn't the fast track to command scheme) which has significantly less requirements.

Either way have a look, here are the links for both.

http://careers.qatarairways.com/qatarai ... cyID=61033

http://careers.qatarairways.com/qatarai ... cyID=81869

FlyDubai

They are looking for First Officers on the 737. You need 2500 hours, and 1000 hours on a glass cockpit in a multi crew environment so long as it's above 10 tonnes MTOW. Can be jet, prop, anything.

Start salary is 13k/month as an F/O and I believe the time to command is 3 years on the 737.

http://careers.flydubai.com/jobs/first- ... -centre-24

A few points to keep in mind going over there.

1) They are very strict on their medicals. A lot of north american pilots seem to struggle with their medicals out there. I've heard various things from must be BMI less than 30 upon initial hire, never to have a waist circumference over 102cm, and if you ever exceed those numbers as an existing employee they will put you on a special diet, and a time frame to shred the lbs or say good bye to your job type of things.

2) The environment is very unforgiving. You follow the SOP to a T, and you better have justifications for why you didn't. It's not the slap on the wrist and don't do it again mentality. You screw up, you pay... even to the point of being fired.

Mind you this is a second hand piece of info, but in one specific case, Captain and F/O elected to continue approach below stabilization criteria, and were both fired. Not even suspended as an interim, but plain fired.

3) Thinking about jumping around between companies in the ME? Most of them have non-poaching agreements. I believe in order for a Fly Dubai pilot to actually even have their resume considered at Emirates, they have to quit Fly Dubai, and leave for 6 months prior inserting their application with Emirates? This is second hand info, but the strength of this second hand info is echoed quite a bit by many expatriates. So do your research on which company you want to end up at. The best way is to go straight to the gig you want, not go there to accumulate exp for another gig 2 blocks down the road.

4) The training bonds are dense. I believe Emirates has a 5 year training bond and I can't remember the figure. Not sure why, probably so that people don't take their type rating to the competition like EY/QR etc.

5) The biggest consideration of all - everyone says that once you leave, it's a one way ticket. You won't come back. Be prepared for that and do a lot of research on what you are getting yourself into. I'd even suggest a trip with your family to these outfits outside of your interview so that you can really evaluate and see if Dubai/Doha/Abu Dhabi life style is for you. It is for many, but it also is not for many.

6) The narrow body gigs are completely different than the wide body flying. So different that people say it feels like flying for two very different companies. The 737/320 pilot's are worked like dogs, can expect to have a lot of red-eye flying, followed by rest in the AM, only to show up in the same day by 10PM for the second pairing, etc. So very hard schedules, and the constant notion is that rosters are all over the place. Hard to get days in a row. Expect to spend your days off in an international location. A common one I hear for Qatar is being positioned to your departure ICAO 2 days prior to your flight. Day 1 is deadhead, day 2 is OFF day, day 3 is return trip home. So your days "OFF" won't necessarily mean at home. Definitely important for those of you who are counting on days off defining being home with the wife. These are the types of info I've heard about with regards to narrow body flying in the QR/EY/FD world. Seems like the wide body flying is much more relaxed and favourable. Still get to spend some of your "days off" away from base however.

I think complexintentions/expat/PJ can give you a lot more info than I can, but since you asked, I felt like I can assist with some info that I have collected from researching the very same option as you. 8)

Best of luck, and if you have any more questions feel free to PM me. I can try to put you in touch with people that are over there. Very helpful professionals.

Edited for grammar **
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Last edited by loopa on Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:43 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Jack Klumpus
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Re: Road to the Middle East.

Post by Jack Klumpus »

Requirements change all the time. Go on to their respective websites and check the requirements.

Currently I believe both etihad and qatar are taking non rated pilots. This could have changed as of this morning though.

They care about type ratings, weight, EFIS, command, jet, and so on. Try and get as many of those.
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bcflyer
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Re: Road to the Middle East.

Post by bcflyer »

Have a look on pprune.com. There is a ton of information there about ME airlines. Obviously you can't believe everything you read online however I do have a couple friends at Emirates who used to love the job and both are now looking to get out ASAP.

Good luck in your search!
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Mr. North
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Re: Road to the Middle East.

Post by Mr. North »

Thanks for the info guys. I've always listened with interest to what complexintentions and others have said about it. I also check pprune from time to time but cutting through all the BS over there can be quite painful. Personally I never really gave working over there serious thought until recently. It would be nice to skip the hit in pay when starting at an airline plus the progression over there appears to be more parabolic. But it seems that to even be considered you need to get on a large 705 here first to gain appropriate experience. From my perspective I don't really see a way over there without making the required sacrifices in the Canadian system first. Am I correct in that assumption?

Personally, I've have spent plenty of time in the ME, including six months in Dubai. While I had fun over there I would have enjoyed it a whole lot more if I was making the appropriate $$$! The whole "one way ticket" aspect is certainly something to think about. It would be tough being so far removed from friends and family. It's all worth considering though...


..and I apologize for not checking all the hiring requirements at the various operators. As my moniker suggests, I am up North where surfing the net is an exercise in patience!!
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AirMail
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Re: Road to the Middle East.

Post by AirMail »

It use to be that CX and EK were the big places expats would go. However the past year or so on both sides of the pond is quite different, with many expats looking to get out asap as noted above mostly due to the working conditions, ie +90hr mths included with that changes in how OT gets paid in that you rarely see it, empty promises etc.. Given that and the exodus, there's opportunity I suppose if one were keen on just only $ and I would venture a guess that conditions will improve in the near future as they get desperate to keep up with hiring and prevent the already number of fins sitting around due to crew shortages.

The money is still good mind you, so if you can work like a dog, smile and say yes, then you can still make a earlier retirement. I think it's a 50/50 toss up to go right now. It's good you have spent some time in Dubi, but do some more research, more feedback from pilots flying there, and make sure you are committed to going there. That 5 yr bond will seem like an eternity if once you get there you find it's not right for you.
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dunkafa
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Re: Road to the Middle East.

Post by dunkafa »

https://donotflyemirates.wordpress.com/

Check feb 14th post, as says earlier lifestyle, relation with management are garbage and as a foreigner don't expect any rights. But if you can manage that then its a good plan.
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BE20 Driver
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Re: Road to the Middle East.

Post by BE20 Driver »

AirMail wrote:It use to be that CX and EK were the big places expats would go.
So if CX and EK are no longer the be-all-end-all foreign airlines, where does a guy (or gal) go for a good combination of money and lifestyle?

There are probably as many answers to this question as there are pilots, but I have to admit to being curious what some of the better options are.
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Re: Road to the Middle East.

Post by AirMail »

I wish I had an answer for you! At the moment it's best to see what transpires over the year and if mgmt creates a more enjoyable, workable atmosphere.
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Jack Klumpus
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Re: Road to the Middle East.

Post by Jack Klumpus »

I think it's what you want out of your career. Many are very happy staying put at home. Some enjoy the Middle East, others prefer to be in south east Asia. Vietnam, for example, attracts many. Korean is another, I believe they still have a commuting contract. Very few have enjoyed India. Some stay in Africa.
If you have the ratings and experience, at the moment, there is a lot of work overseas. You need to choose which you prefer.

I forgot to mention China. Lots of work there.
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Eric Janson
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Re: Road to the Middle East.

Post by Eric Janson »

BE20 Driver wrote:
AirMail wrote:It use to be that CX and EK were the big places expats would go.
So if CX and EK are no longer the be-all-end-all foreign airlines, where does a guy (or gal) go for a good combination of money and lifestyle?
There really isn't anything that ticks all the boxes at the moment. I looked at all the various options in 2013.

All current Expat jobs require compromises - the Expat world is not the Aviation Utopia a lot of people seem to think it is.
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Joe Blow Schmo
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Re: Road to the Middle East.

Post by Joe Blow Schmo »

BE20 Driver wrote:
AirMail wrote:It use to be that CX and EK were the big places expats would go.
So if CX and EK are no longer the be-all-end-all foreign airlines, where does a guy (or gal) go for a good combination of money and lifestyle?

There are probably as many answers to this question as there are pilots, but I have to admit to being curious what some of the better options are.
I guess it depends what your situation is. Assuming you don't qualify for the big money DEC contracts there are still a few options:

Air Japan: If you've got the jet time and meet the requirements this is a good gig. FO 767 with upgrade after ~5 years. 12 consecutive days off a month. This would be my first choice.

ANA Wings: If you're a turboprop captain and don't mind staying a turboprop captain this is a good job. Spoken to a few people who have enjoyed this contract.

FlyDubai: If I were interested in the middle east, this would be my first choice today. Decent money, quick upgrades, proper scheduling system. Mostly heard good things. As long as you don't mind getting shot at going into Baghdad and other happening hot spots, it's supposed to be pretty good.

Etihad: My 2nd choice in the ME. Still quicker upgrades and don't hear too many complaints.

Qatar: Well it's an option I suppose. Relatively quick upgrade but that's about the only positive thing I've seen/heard.

EK: Not much going for it at the moment. Too much flying, upgrades taking longer and longer, standard of accommodation dropping, nobody seems happy.

CX: Still a pretty good lifestyle, though it's a long time to upgrade. No more housing allowance for new hires so very difficult to live. Hong Kong is the most expensive property market in the world. Ok if you're young and single and can live in a tiny apartment, but very difficult with a family or if you're planning on having one at some point.

There are also some of the Asian LoCos. Jetstar Asia and Tiger in Singapore, Air Asia in several countries...etc. Depending on needs and changes in local regulations they sometimes take expat FOs though you pretty much always have to pay for your training.

As somebody else mentioned. Everything is a compromise these days. There is no clear winner like there used to be. Score 1 for airline management.

Personally if I were to rank those in order of my preference it would be:

Air Japan
Fly Dubai
Etihad
CX (only if I was single and under 25 - otherwise I wouldn't consider it)
ANA Wings
Qatar - just long enough to get 1000 PIC and get out.

I wouldn't consider EK at all right now.

As a long term career I don't think any of them are better than AC or Westjet now though. Some of them used to be, but not anymore. So I wouldn't recommend any of them unless you've been rejected by AC and WJ or are going to go overseas as a stepping stone to get back to AC or WJ.



Disclaimer: All the above is my personal opinion and is mostly 2nd or 3rd hand information.
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Phlyer
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Re: Road to the Middle East.

Post by Phlyer »

A quick caveat to Joe:
I got head hunted for Air Japan and spent some time looking into it.
Seems like a decent gig but with one exception - you will spend 8-9 months in Japan training before you ever fly anything.
Something to keep in mind if you have a family - they are not allowed to be there while you train.
Just an FYI.
Cheers
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Joe Blow Schmo
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Re: Road to the Middle East.

Post by Joe Blow Schmo »

Phyler,

As I said, everything is a compromise these days. If you're not qualified for the DEC jobs, I still think Air Japan is the best of the bunch right now. Yes training is 6-9 months. My understanding is that there is often gaps in the schedule that could allow you to travel home for visits. There is nothing stopping your family from visiting you, although I assume it would be at your own expense. Once you're online I think it's the best balance of pay, lifestyle, and opportunity currently available for those without significant Airbus/Boeing PIC time.
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