Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

[loopa]

Emirates just dropped their requirement for 2000 hours of Jet.

http://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/eng ... ments.aspx

It used to be 4k total time, 2k jet. It went to 2k jet. Now it's gone to ICAO ATPL, and Level 4 English language proficiency.

Do your research before going, sounds like the reason requirements have dropped is due to lack of candidates applying.

Maybe some of the expats on the board can comment further on what it's like there, as it's hard to cut through the comments on pprune.

[Inverted2]

From what I hear the glory days are over in the M.E. for pilot jobs. They are now working guys 90+ hrs a month and your days off are few and far between. Plus the major airlines in N.A. are all hiring for the most part. Why work over there when you can have a job here? Granted you make less here but you get to live HERE!

China is hiring lots too if you can manage the polluted air and crowded cities.

[loopa]

From what I hear the glory days are over in the M.E. for pilot jobs. They are now working guys 90+ hrs a month and your days off are few and far between. Plus the major airlines in N.A. are all hiring for the most part. Why work over there when you can have a job here? Granted you make less here but you get to live HERE!

China is hiring lots too if you can manage the polluted air and crowded cities.

The above is exactly what my friends at Ek are saying as well. The common quote is "When QR/EY is offering a better package, you know that EK has gone to the dumpster."

At the end of the day to each their own. What may be a poor package for one, may not be for another. I think the perspective EK is after is a TurboProp driver that may feel stuck in their job can now fly a Jet, and put up with the things other's are complaining about - a concept a lot of people define as proof that EK management is not interested in improving working conditions.

5 year bond, 90 hour flying spread over 20 days, see the world, fly across all sorts of time zones, short haul flying combined with long haul flying, up to 9 day pairings, combination of cargo and pax flying, 42 days annual leave (usually with a maximum of 15 given at a time), discounts all across EK sponsored amenities, hotels, restaurants, etc, discount travel on economy/business/first class, dxb metro life.

That's the info I have.

[sstaurus]

Can someone comment on the compensation? Has it gone down as well? 90hrs a month might be worth it if you're well taken care of in that regard. Sure Canadian airlines are hiring, but you'll be starting at ~35k for many years in the beginning...

[Eric Janson]

I was in Dubai a few days ago.

Temperature on departure +44C. This was at 1100 so it would have increased a few more degrees.

You cannot spend any length of time outside in these temperatures - it is extremely uncomfortable.

I suggest that those of you that have never been to Dubai buy a ticket and go and see for yourself.

[complexintentions]

The pay at EK hasn't declined, but the purchasing power certainly has with the rapid inflation here. The price of gasoline will increase about 25% starting August 1 (reminds me, I have to fill up today!) from about 60 cents/litre to 75 cents/litre. So a big jump, but still nothing like what is paid in Canada. There is also rumblings of the introduction of a 7% VAT but who knows if/when they will follow through, and again, still far less than taxation in Canada. All things are relative. It IS amusing how things like the weather are always tossed about. Yes, Dubai is very hot in summer. Toronto is very cold in winter. I dislike both extremes. But I know which city has facilitated the achievement of my goals. To each their own. You do adapt - for example, even in summer I go running after dark in 39C temps, with hundreds of others, on dedicated running tracks at the beach and parks. But you'd have to live here for some time to acclimatize, not visit for a few days, or on layover like Eric. The downside is when I go home to Canada I suffer in temperatures less than 25C. There are lots of reasons not to move to the Middle East but if the main reason is temperature, best to stay flying the Metro in Sudbury or whatever.

The big difficulty at Emirates is the rosters (schedules for North Americans). We do fly incredible amounts at the moment, and no signs of letting up. The company is immensely profitable, and has gotten greedy. Yes, they did pay a nine week salary bonus this year. And they have reduced the overtime threshold so that with the rostered overtime each month, the monthly pay has actually increased in absolute terms. That seems to be their solution, to wring more work out of their existing workforce, without regard for the limits of human exhaustion, or people's personal lives, and pay more $$ for it. But it is to the point where it simply isn't sustainable: no amount of money can replace your health and sanity. Many are burning out, going sick (often permanently losing their medical), getting fed up of having no life, and leaving - and of course, that exacerbates the problem. And I don't think the company has any idea of how many are actually LOOKING to leave, as that isn't easy to measure. At the same time, the word is out that it's a terrible place to work now, which makes it unattractive to any other than the most desperate or deluded. The lowered hiring requirements is only one indication of that, yet management continues to deny there is a problem. Arrogant, incompetent, or willfully blind, it's hard to tell. One of the suspected causes is that there is an expectation of some extremely senior management personnel retiring or leaving the company in the fall, so they have no interest in improving things, only lining their pockets with as much money as they can before they beat their retreat (like all expats, myself included). Meanwhile the operational staff suffer, and the company lurches along in this incredible dichotomy: expanding and profitable on the one side, bleeding exhausted staff on the other. Something will give.

It is interesting times for those of us currently here, who joined under vastly better conditions - full of contradictions. With the collapse of the Canadian dollar, our pay has increased dramatically in terms of CAD. At the current exchange rates the pay for a B777 captain is over $22,000/month CAD including the housing allowance - tax-free. My own goal is still to leave aviation completely in a few years, and 3-4 years is all I need to retire comfortably - alas, not on a starting wage at Encore or the like. I follow Canadian economics closely, and it is definitely not a good time to be making a voluntary move to a job paid in CAD, with the economy in Canada circling the toilet and an election in the works. (I cannot imagine three more useless political candidates, fortuitously, I'm no longer allowed to vote!) But I won't survive that long at EK - or at least, I'm not willing to - in it's current iteration so I'm looking at Asia, where fortunately there is the possibility of high-paying work for experienced pilots. I'm also pursuing options in the US, which would be my first choice if I can work out the eligibility issues. Point being, for those considering applying to Emirates who PM to ask if it's a good job: it's complicated. EK has worked out for me, but I wouldn't apply today or go near it whatsoever - the glory days are over, indeed. Victims of their own success.

[Boreas]

Interesting read, complexintentions. Thanks for sharing.

Having lived on the equator - not a +40C region, but still - for a couple of years myself, I can definitely attest to acclimatizing quite well within a few of months.

Could you shed some light on the experience levels the recent new-hires (F/Os) are bringing to the table?

[complexintentions]

hey Boreas,

Well, the level seems to still be pretty high, I've been flying with some fairly new FO's and they are generally good operators, good guys. But it's a different deal now - flew with a guy the other day who's been with EK about 3 1/2 years and he remarked that he'd just crossed 5,000 hours. Without thinking about the fact that it's not really possible to get that many hours in a few years - even with our crazy rosters - I said hey, that's pretty good, 5,000 hours on the B777. But he was like, no...5,000 hours total! Which was kind of amazing to me, because 5,000 hours was the minimum requirement when I was hired. So, the times are changing. Only time will tell it it's for the better.

Most of the hiring seems to be from companies like Ryanair which make even Emirates seem good, and they want the chance to fly a widebody. Mostly from European lo-cost places. Decent guys I guess, but it's hard to relate to those who paid for their type rating and never flew anything other than an NG as their first job. A bit of entitlement at times. But it's sinking in that they may not get the fast upgrade they hoped for as the company is now actively looking for DEC's on the B777 as well.

[upintheair_]

If they're open to turbo prop pilots, maybe NickyNick can finally get a job.

[Justjohn]

Yes, quite probably! I hear he has about 3900 TT mostly on the BE20 ... Or is it the BE02? Can't be sure.

[ant_321]

Yes, quite probably! I hear he has about 3900 TT mostly on the BE20 ... Or is it the BE02? Can't be sure.

It's the BE20 remeber? He wants to get on a BE02 so he can get 705 time.

[SuperchargedRS]

I've lived in deserts before, I'll pass.

Plus culture wise, well



Overall there is a reason they have to pay more.

[UKPilot]

I think the bottom line is it just depends on what you're after. The smallest you'll fly in EK is the 330 and both the 330 and the 777 have excellent contract prospects in the far east which would give you the opportunity to commute home for the same if not more money than what EK pays. It won't be all sunshine and roses as you will have to work hard for the hours, but it could be a stepping stone if your end game is to commute from the far east. It's sad that EK has become just a stepping stone, but it is what it is.

I'm currently flying the 380 and that in itself was a mistake. Giving up my left seat on the 320 in Asia to sit right seat 380 has drastically reduced my future prospects. While I'm not in a terrible place, it wasn't something that I was expecting when I got the job offer a couple years ago. Partly because I thought I would be here for some time, but I can honestly tell you that I'm actively looking for something better. Arguably I'm in the best position in EK at the moment because of the schedules, but we can all see what's coming and it isn't going to be pretty.

Anyways, the point is that EK is a good option depending on your own personal circumstances but do your homework.

[complexintentions]

hi UKPilot,

You're correct that there are excellent prospects for 330 and 777 pilots in Asia, (also 320/737) but the caveat is that the jobs are for captains. One of the big draws of EK used to be that due to the rapid expansion a command could come fairly quickly, it was running about 3 years when I joined, which is amazing for the category of aircraft and flying. However now it is closer to 5 years and increasing.That's partly just demographics: the fleet cannot continue to grow at the same rate it did 5, 10, 15 years ago - it's not mathematically realistic to double every couple years anymore with a 220 a/c fleet.

But it gets worse: on the B777 they are struggling with training capacity for internal upgrades due to the number resigning (or "retiring" as EK would say). So they have ceased upgrades on the B777 and are now actively looking for Direct Entry captains, because then they only have to train one pilot, instead of two. I know many guys now who've been in the right seat for 4-5 years and are now stuck there for an indefinite amount of time. No way to appeal it, you are guaranteed nothing when you join, they're just stuck. Not a nice feeling if you'e gone "all in" on the expat gamble. It takes its toll in many different ways: the divorce rate is horrendous, for example.

That's just on the B777 fleet. The 330/340 rosters are a horror, with the night turnarounds. How does 95 hours of 2am departures/ 1pm arrivals sound, with eight days off/month? The 380 has better rosters, but less variety so far and also a LOT of hours, and 2-class machines coming. (Ohhhh....Incredible India, here we come!) And as you say, no demand for a 380 rating after Emirates, as no one else really has them in any numbers. Fortunately your A320 rating is very valuable so you're fine.

Anyway just something for prospective applicants to be aware of, you could be in the right seat for a much longer time than you may realize, and absolutely the Emirates recruiters will try and spin one of their benefits as "rapid upgrades". Meanwhile you've signed a five year, $45,000USD bond (that's almost $60,000 CAD) to live in the Middle East and fly rosters that would make Air Canada pilots curl up in the fetal position. like the little babies they are

I can't really tell anyone to apply or not to apply, just to be careful. All recruiters exaggerate to the positive (*cough lie through their teeth cough*) and play down the negatives. There are plenty of negatives at the moment.

[Eric Janson]

Some very good advice in this thread.

Anyone thinking about going the Expat route voluntarily needs to do their research carefully.

That means looking a bit further than flying a big shiny jet.

The Political situation in some parts of the World is deteriorating rapidly - you need to keep that in mind.

It's anything but the Utopia some people seem to think it is. It also requires a special mindset to be able to deal with the issues - there will be plenty no matter who you work for!

You're not in the Western World - there can be significant cultural differences. Their thinking and their way of doing things may make no sense to you. You will have to adapt - not the other way round.

It's not for everybody.

What is critically important to realise is that this is a one-way street. There is normally no way back.

You'll get to learn all about "Golden Handcuffs", the "20/24 list" and the "2 Buckets Theory" - especially if you work in the ME!

It's also important to understand you have no rights - your contract is just a piece of paper. There are 2 sets of rules - one for the locals and one for the Expats.

On a personal note - I became an Expat due to circumstances beyond my control. It worked for 8 years and then fell apart within a few weeks. I enjoyed the experience, learned a lot about different cultures, experienced some truely unique things and got some useful experience and Type Ratings in the process. It worked for me - but what I was able to achieve is no longer possible.

[loopa]

These are great pieces of advice. The pretty much line up with anyone I've spoken with that is presently at EK.

Anyone care to comment how conditions are at Qatar and Etihad as compared to the info posted above?

[mushr00m]

Meanwhile you've signed a five year, $45,000USD bond (that's almost $60,000 CAD) to live in the Middle East and fly rosters that would make Air Canada pilots curl up in the fetal position.

WOW!! Talk about handcuffs.....

[Flyboycanada80]

Anyone have any insight on FZ (flydubai)? 3yr 36K bond. Conditions sound ok for FO's from what i hear. Pay is 11K a month (US) but you take care of your own housing etc. I'm faced with the decision on either that or a regional in Canada for peanuts.

[aerodude]

Anyone have any insight on FZ (flydubai)? 3yr 36K bond. Conditions sound ok for FO's from what i hear. Pay is 11K a month (US) but you take care of your own housing etc. I'm faced with the decision on either that or a regional in Canada for peanuts.

Perks are not bad, however, the flying can be dangerous in terms of flights into warzone. They have been literally shot at a few times.

Up to you to decide if it's worth it, Emirates on the other hand doesn't fly into warzones, but the schedule is just disgusting.

[creepilot]

Anyone have any insight on FZ (flydubai)? 3yr 36K bond. Conditions sound ok for FO's from what i hear. Pay is 11K a month (US) but you take care of your own housing etc. I'm faced with the decision on either that or a regional in Canada for peanuts.

Perks are not bad, however, the flying can be dangerous in terms of flights into warzone. They have been literally shot at a few times.

Up to you to decide if it's worth it, Emirates on the other hand doesn't fly into warzones, but the schedule is just disgusting.

Emirates flies to war zones as well...Kabul anyone?

For flydubai everything is on pprune.