Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

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complexintentions
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#26 Post by complexintentions » Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:05 am

Which company are you asking about?
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#27 Post by Flyboycanada80 » Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:56 am

ikarus wrote:The fact is it is not rosy anywhere anymore in this industry.

On the other hand, it is really disappointing to hear news like this from the sandpit, the place where many have gone to to make serious money but also to escape the bs of their own jobs....now it seems the tide is reversing...

Anyone know how the accommodation system works over there nowadays? Do you still get your townhouse or they give you cash to find your own place?
Emirates puts you up in accomodation depending on how big your family is ranging from an apartment to bigger villas. Also I hear quality is luck of the draw.
Fly Dubai pays you out so your on your own with accommodations. Which can be a good or bad thing depending on what you get.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#28 Post by ikarus » Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:51 pm

Thanks Flyboy.
complexintentions wrote:Which company are you asking about?
EK

By the way, I've been reading a lot of your comments on ME, and you seem to have experience there if I recall....

Can you give us your take on the current "mess" at EK, because after reading many posts on PPrune, I think my head is starting to hurt! lol Is it possible that paradise is starting to fall apart over there, or is this just a temporary hick up due to their massive expansion plans?

Thank you in advance.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#29 Post by tbaylx » Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:23 pm

ikarus wrote:Thanks Flyboy.
complexintentions wrote:Which company are you asking about?
EK

By the way, I've been reading a lot of your comments on ME, and you seem to have experience there if I recall....

Can you give us your take on the current "mess" at EK, because after reading many posts on PPrune, I think my head is starting to hurt! lol Is it possible that paradise is starting to fall apart over there, or is this just a temporary hick up due to their massive expansion plans?

Thank you in advance.
Try scrolling back to the first page, he's pretty much answered that. It was a decent gig at 73 hours/month, since the "memo" moving the overtime threshold to 90+ hrs/month its pretty hard to do that long term without ending up dead or serious medical issues. Hope your money bucket fills up before you kick the other one.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#30 Post by watermeth » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:10 pm

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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#31 Post by tbaylx » Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:53 pm

Kuwait is not the U.A.E. and the thread is about EK. There are different degrees of screwed up over there, best to keep the airlines associated with the country you'd be based in.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#32 Post by watermeth » Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:58 pm

you're right, and that will allow people reading this thread to grasp the trend in this part of the world.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#33 Post by Panama Jack » Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:55 am

Eric Janson wrote:I was in Dubai a few days ago.

Temperature on departure +44C. This was at 1100 so it would have increased a few more degrees.

You cannot spend any length of time outside in these temperatures - it is extremely uncomfortable.

I suggest that those of you that have never been to Dubai buy a ticket and go and see for yourself.

I feel the same way in many parts of Canada during the winter. The solution is the same- minimize your time outdoors, look forward to the more pleasant seasons and, if possible, plan your South-North vacation.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#34 Post by Eric Janson » Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:08 am

As I've said previously - look further than flying a big shiny jet.

Some more big picture news:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/oilp ... -Gulf.html

I see the evidence of this everywhere in Dubai - construction has stopped at a lot of projects. Other projects consist of a big flashy billboards and nothing but sand behind it.

My favourite is Universal Studios Dubai - just an archway in the desert!

Construction has also stopped at the new Dubai airport (the one that was going to have 6 runways). They've built one!

Dubai - monument to Hubris!

Becoming an Expat voluntarily is all about the risk/reward trade off. At present in the ME it is ever increasing risk combined with ever decreasing rewards. If you have a stable job in your own country then that's the best option imho.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#35 Post by altiplano » Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:06 am

While ME work has done well for those that went early - I think past performance is not an indicator of future success stories.

Additionally, can you handle doing as your told no matter what and keeping your mouth shut? Make no mistake that's what is expected. You are disposable. I know a few few guys that went to Emirates and a couple to Qatar, all want out desperately but are stuck on options.

Ideal candidate for ME employment today: Desperate to fly a jet, blinders, minimal self respect... Good luck...
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#36 Post by Old fella » Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:47 pm

If I may be so bold to ask a question on this topic as a point of interest and without any intention to stir the pot as I have zilch knowledge on the ME and airline operations in general. Do I understand it correctly that accepting a flying job there, you can't just simply decide the type of work isn't for you, give your required notice and head back to your home country. Nor can you leave one country in the ME with the intention of flying for another company in the same location. I read the link from Mr. Janson's post about those high end exotic sports cars being abandoned, is this a result of folks tired of it all and drive to the airport park those fancy cars get on the next flight with just what you have with the intention of never returning.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#37 Post by Flyboycanada80 » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:11 pm

Old fella wrote:If I may be so bold to ask a question on this topic as a point of interest and without any intention to stir the pot as I have zilch knowledge on the ME and airline operations in general. Do I understand it correctly that accepting a flying job there, you can't just simply decide the type of work isn't for you, give your required notice and head back to your home country. Nor can you leave one country in the ME with the intention of flying for another company in the same location. I read the link from Mr. Janson's post about those high end exotic sports cars being abandoned, is this a result of folks tired of it all and drive to the airport park those fancy cars get on the next flight with just what you have with the intention of never returning.
Its like any other job. Leave if you want with notice. You are however bonded so you have to pay it back if you decide to leave if you want to leave early.

On the second point the companies have a no poaching policy. This isn't to trap you there its because theyspend a ton of money recruiting and getting you there and they don't want you to just jump ship next door. Fair in my opinion.

The exotic sports cars are left at the airport because certain people rack up their debt and live a lavish life they cant sustain. If you cant pay your debts you goto jail. So instead of going to jail they flea.

If your able to live within your means you can save a TON of money. How nice to not have a mortgage back home?

As an example for FlyDubai as a first officer your EQUIVALENT Canadian GROSS income would be 270K. Food for thought.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#38 Post by watermeth » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:34 pm

Salary doesn't mean anything. What about your purchasing power ?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#39 Post by ikarus » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:38 pm

So new EK bond is 5 yrs ($45,000USD), correct?

Say you just can't handle it anymore, and leave in your 3rd year? How do they get the rest of the money? They can cut your last pay check...but what if that isn't enough to recover the bond? Just curious what happens?
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#40 Post by AirMail » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:06 pm

ikarus wrote:So new EK bond is 5 yrs ($45,000USD), correct?

Say you just can't handle it anymore, and leave in your 3rd year? How do they get the rest of the money? They can cut your last pay check...but what if that isn't enough to recover the bond? Just curious what happens?
AFAIK you won't be able to get an exit visa with any outstanding debt. Some parts of the ME this is true, not sure about all parts.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#41 Post by Dh8Classic » Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:43 pm

altiplano wrote: Ideal candidate for ME employment today: Desperate to fly a jet, blinders, minimal self respect... Good luck...
Maybe it is more like....sick and tired of being stuck flying in crap areas of Canada, frustrated that the majors insist that you likely have to start off at another company(their regional) prior to hiring you, plenty of self respect(but none for people like you), would like to experience flying around the world and flying amazing airliners.

The Middle east has always turned me off because you have to live there and can't get home much so I never applied. But for a young guy looking for adventure, it is a heck of an opportunity for 5 years.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#42 Post by Flyboycanada80 » Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:56 pm

ikarus wrote:So new EK bond is 5 yrs ($45,000USD), correct?

Say you just can't handle it anymore, and leave in your 3rd year? How do they get the rest of the money? They can cut your last pay check...but what if that isn't enough to recover the bond? Just curious what happens?
Well you also get an "end of year service benefit" so like a bonus equal to one month or 3 weeks pay for every year your stay. So they can use that as well possibly. So you have to think, after 3 years your bond is 18k US. Using that bonus should cover it. Or just pay. If you haven't saved 18k by then you should sell your 100ft yacht.....

Also I have been looking at flydubai in which the bond is a much more reasonable 36k and 3 years...
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#43 Post by fish4life » Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:17 pm

Who says you can't just take your usual flight home to visit and just never come back skipping out on your bond etc that way?
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#44 Post by Eric Janson » Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:53 am

Dh8Classic wrote:The Middle east has always turned me off because you have to live there and can't get home much so I never applied. But for a young guy looking for adventure, it is a heck of an opportunity for 5 years.
And then what?

You'll discover that there is nowhere to go and finally understand what "Golden Handcuffs" means.
Flyboycanada80 wrote:As an example for FlyDubai as a first officer your EQUIVALENT Canadian GROSS income would be 270K. Food for thought.
That's a meaningless comparison imho.

What's needed is a breakdown of this figure and more importantly the net amount. The UAE is a very expensive place to live.
fish4life wrote:Who says you can't just take your usual flight home to visit and just never come back skipping out on your bond etc that way?
That's great - until you join an Airline that flies to the Middle East. Good luck trying to explain that to your boss!
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#45 Post by Dh8Classic » Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:16 am

Eric Janson wrote:
Dh8Classic wrote:The Middle east has always turned me off because you have to live there and can't get home much so I never applied. But for a young guy looking for adventure, it is a heck of an opportunity for 5 years.
And then what?

You'll discover that there is nowhere to go and finally understand what "Golden Handcuffs" means.
Talk about a lack of knowledge.

A guy flying an ATR goes to Emirates and gets a couple of thousand hours flying a 777 or an Airbus and he will have nowhere to go. This despite the fact that airlines around the world are short pilots. There are a lot of pilots now leaving the Middle East. Are they going nowhere? Maybe just to the unemployment line? Not likely.

Broad statements based on nothing are not helpful.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#46 Post by hithere » Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:14 am

What he means is that unless you intend to finish your career with a carrier in the Middle East, you will end up coming back to Canada with lots of heavy jet experience but still find yourself having to go to the bottom of a seniority list. Either that or resign yourself to being a contract pilot with carriers with no established seniority system and the attendant frequent moves and company instability etc. if you have a family, then it's going to be an even more turbulent career.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#47 Post by Joe Blow Schmo » Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:54 am

Some good advice from UK, CI, and Eric. I became and expat 15 years ago. It was not a goal of mine to go overseas, I just took the best job available at the time. It has worked out very well for me, mainly because at the time I came, expat jobs paid significantly more than the equivalent jobs in Canada. Excepting DEC jobs, mostly in China, that is no longer the case. If I were in the same position now, becoming an expat would be the backup plan if the majors in Canada didn't pan out.
Eric Janson wrote:
It also requires a special mindset to be able to deal with the issues - there will be plenty no matter who you work for!

You're not in the Western World - there can be significant cultural differences. Their thinking and their way of doing things may make no sense to you. You will have to adapt - not the other way round.
No truer statement could be made. Your personality type and your attitude will be THE most important factor determining your level of enjoyment and success overseas. Read all the information available from various sources, all the issues that arise, all the advice given and then look at yourself in the mirror and decide if you can handle the issues and adapt to the cultural and behavioural norms of your new country while still keeping a smile on your face.

As others have mentioned, it is pretty much a one way street. After a few years away, once you've been flying a 777 or A330, making decent (though no longer great) money, you're likely not going to be willing to go to the bottom of an airline seniority list in Canada and sit reserve for $45k/year. That's even if you can get hired by a major in Canada anymore. With the big 2 taking most from their regionals now it's become extremely hard to go back even if you were willing. Once an expat, pretty much always an expat. You may move to another job in another country but you're not likely to go home.

To the guy asking about FlyDubai vs. a Canadian regional, it really depends on what you want. Do you want it to be a stepping stone for AC/WJ or do you want to to be an expat for life? If you're happy being an expat for life, go for it. After 5 years you'l be a 737 captain and have numerous contract opportunities if you want to move. However, if you want it to be a stepping stone then you need to consider what happens if you don't get the AC/WJ job. See the previous paragraph, it would be hard enough giving up your 737 captain job making over $200k Canadian tax free to go work for AC or WJ, let alone any of the other operators in Canada. So you delay, hoping something else will come up, and the longer you delay, the harder it gets to go home. Then you're "stuck" as an expat. That's not necessarily a bad thing, depends on you. I'm quite happy with my life. That being said, the older I get and the older my kids get the more I think about possibly coming back to Canada at some point. 5 years ago I wouldn't have even considered going home. I'm still not ready to, but it gets a lot more consideration now.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#48 Post by Eric Janson » Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:31 am

Dh8Classic wrote:Broad statements based on nothing are not helpful.
I should have explained what I was trying to say a bit more clearly.

hithere and Joe Blow Schmo have given a fantastic explanation (better than I would have been able to).

Thanks guys!

One other thing I forgot to mention.

For those of you who do decide to go.

Do not under any circumstances buy property in the Middle East.
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#49 Post by North Shore » Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:00 pm

Eric Janson wrote: Do not under any circumstances buy property in the Middle East.
Why's that? Does it automatically make you a resident, or, being a non-citizen of those countries, do you have no property rights there?
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Re: Middle East now open to Turbo Prop Pilots'

#50 Post by Mig29 » Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:11 pm

I believe he's trying to say that the market is going to tank in the future...
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