777 captain for $175K

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ikarus
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#26 Post by ikarus » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:31 am

Loads,

You got a PM from me.

Cheers
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#27 Post by complexintentions » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:07 pm

Squid wrote:I would take good ol Canada any day compared to the Dubai heat and gong show or hanging out on china or waiting to grab my commute flight back. No thanks. I'll take getting taxed by our lovely NDP government. Life's to short to miss most of it there imo. Right Mike!
Here's the thing. No one's asking you to leave "good ol' Canada", and at the risk of sounding rude, I'm pretty sure no one would care if you stayed OR left. It's just that when people give unsolicited opinions, bashing jobs that they know nothing about beyond hearsay, it makes them sound defensive and self-justifying. (I'm actually trying to be kind, in truth it makes people sound like hillbillies who've never travelled further than Wabush).

I only offer advice about expat jobs because a) people ask and b) I actually have a bit of experience in the area. I am no expert but at least I've, y'know, done it. I don't go on threads about say, Air Canada interviews and make statements about how I'd "never leave my tax-free haven and join that union cluster-eff AC in the frozen wasteland of Canada". See how dumb that sounds in reverse? That's what expats hear when people make uninformed comments about expat work.

I simply consider all opportunities presented to me and quite frankly, overseas work has opened far, far more of those than anything I ever had in Canada. YMMV. I'm not claiming it would work for everyone.

As I said if you don't like the job's pay, don't apply. People not applying for jobs is far more effective in raising wages than ranting on an internet forum. Supply and demand, blah blah blah. Ironically, I doubt the people outraged by this job even have the credentials to apply for it. Kind of funny.

Dog help Canada if the NDP get in federally. Be careful what you wish for. The country is already teetering on the edge of recession, why not push it over the edge, I guess?

I thought loads post was excellent, his point that the Canadian industry is not really one to be moaning about the wages in other ones was dead on.
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#28 Post by altiplano » Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:30 pm

Look man.

I'm not bashing expats and I'm not a never been out of my backyard hillbilly - I get it there are alot of great expat gigs.

I'm not trying to compare them to Canadian jobs in particular.

I'm looking at the worldwide market and fact is I don't think 175K is enough. Period. If you have a hard time with that I'm sorry. It isn't a bash at anyone. I think you even agreed with me earlier in this thread.
complexintentions wrote:I am inclined to agree that the pay is low for a B777 captain.
So stop making this an expat vs. Canada thing. Bottim line if you're a type rated, experienced captain you can do much better. Make these SOBs pay for the experience they need.

I may want to take a leave and go overseas in a couple years and I don't want the bar dragged down... Make them pay what you're worth.
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#29 Post by complexintentions » Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:56 pm

Fair enough. Well, rest assured that the job you mentioned is not really representative of the opportunities in general. They may get a few tire-kickers but there are far better opportunities out there.
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#30 Post by ogopogo » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:18 am

I am not an airline pilot, but I have a question. I gather all the arguments above are being based on formula pay - ie the heavier the aircraft, the higher the pay. (which has always seemed strange to me given the skills in flying a B73X aren't a whole lot different than a B77X)

But aren't there airlines out there who pay strictly based on years of service, regardless of aircraft type? I seem to recall reading that BA has this?

So how does one square this with "what you're worth"?
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#31 Post by Joe Blow Schmo » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:38 pm

ogopogo wrote:I am not an airline pilot, but I have a question. I gather all the arguments above are being based on formula pay - ie the heavier the aircraft, the higher the pay. (which has always seemed strange to me given the skills in flying a B73X aren't a whole lot different than a B77X)

But aren't there airlines out there who pay strictly based on years of service, regardless of aircraft type? I seem to recall reading that BA has this?

So how does one square this with "what you're worth"?
Firstly, formula pay has nothing to do with the skills require to fly the aeroplane, it has to do with the revenue generated by the aeroplane. A pilot flying 300 people (or 450 in AC's sardine class) in a 777 generates more revenue than a pilot flying 150 in a 737.

Plenty of airlines have a status pay system. Probably most of them outside of North America. Some of them have the same status pay across all types, others perhaps have two scales: One for narrow body, short haul and one for wide body, long haul. No matter which system you use however, CAD175K for a wide body captain would not be found in any of the respectable airlines. Even as narrow body pay it's quite low.
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#32 Post by altiplano » Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:01 am

Who's operating a 77W with only 300 seats?

I think AC reconfigured or are in the process of reconfiguring those HD triples to 3 class, maybe 395 seats+/-?
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#33 Post by Joe Blow Schmo » Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:03 am

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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#34 Post by Joe Blow Schmo » Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:26 am

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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#35 Post by altiplano » Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:06 am

All those aircraft have Cabin/First/Business classes extending extending aft the wings.

Guess we can see where the money is... Asia...

Anyway tough comparison against a largely economy configured aircraft competing with similar configurations on select routes...
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#36 Post by Joe Blow Schmo » Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:32 pm

altiplano wrote:All those aircraft have Cabin/First/Business classes extending extending aft the wings.

Guess we can see where the money is... Asia...

Anyway tough comparison against a largely economy configured aircraft competing with similar configurations on select routes...
AC's 458 pax version is 3-class and is flown to Asia where it competes with all of the above. The main difference is they jam 10 across in economy vs the normal 9 (and they don't have as many J class seats)
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#37 Post by altiplano » Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:59 pm

YVR HKG? I think that's all it does in Asia. YYZ Asia flights are all on the older layout aircraft...

Interesting article on where airlines and manufacturers are going on this...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240 ... 1949066648

"On a 777, ten-abreast is the way to go," said Emirates President Tim Clark. "You'd be nuts to do it any other way."
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#38 Post by crazyaviator » Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:53 pm

Pilots: Type A, egocentric, proud, back-stabbing, entitlement junkies who always feel they are worth more than they aught to be paid!
Many pilots get their nickers in a knot when foreign pilots come over to Canada to take their job but those same pilots wouldn't think twice about going over to a 3rd world ( or close to) country and DEMANDING a wage that is 500 times MORE than the average laborer in that country and perhaps 5-10 times more than what ANY indigenous pilot would beg to have!
A lead AME who signs off the B777 aught to be paid at least HALF the pay of the captain of the same plane, don"t you think?
If the salary of a B737 captain rose to $400.000.00 4 years from now and was STILL the lowest paid 737 captain in the 1st world countries,,, most pilots would still complain! PATHETIC !!!
As an accomplished AME and Comm pilot, i still prefer cracking open a beer with a dirty, foul mouthed AME than a back-stabbing, position jockeying, judgmental pilot ! :P
I have found roughly 3 times as many assholes in my time with pilots as I have with AME's. Any other ideas why ?
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#39 Post by Joe Blow Schmo » Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:14 pm

altiplano wrote:YVR HKG? I think that's all it does in Asia. YYZ Asia flights are all on the older layout aircraft...

Interesting article on where airlines and manufacturers are going on this...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240 ... 1949066648

"On a 777, ten-abreast is the way to go," said Emirates President Tim Clark. "You'd be nuts to do it any other way."
That doesn't surprise me from EK. They seem to have a different target market than most of the Asian flag carriers, at least in economy. They're targeting the price conscious customer, the one that will buy the cheapest ticket no matter the inconvenience. Those are the people willing to do a change in Dubai in order to save a few bucks. In that case they need to jam as many people as they can on the plane in order to generate revenue. Most of the other airlines are targeting the higher yield travellers. The ones for whom schedule, convenience, comfort and time are important. Compare the prices of the airlines I listed above. SQ, CX, ANA, JAL, etc. Rarely are they the cheapest and they are usually quite a bit more expensive than the others yet they still manage to fill their planes.

Is YVR-HKG the only route AC uses the 458 seater on? I didn't know that. Even so, they still compete with a 275 seat CX 77W on that route.
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#40 Post by altiplano » Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:15 am

For Asia that's it... But also yul/cdg. I heard it was in response to Air France running a similar config... It may do one of the LHR flights too...

Hey crazyaviator. Thanks for chiming in. I hope you don't take it personally when I say to go fūck yourself.
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#41 Post by crazyaviator » Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:33 am

Absolutely not Altiplano :D Sometimes the truth hurts! I take it we wont be sittin down with a cold one anytime soon ? :lol:
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#42 Post by complexintentions » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:20 am

i highly doubt crazyaviator gets any choice in whom he gets to share beers with. Who wants to spend time with a jealous little shit-stirrer like that?

Expats - AME's and pilots - get paid according to market forces. If someone wants to get paid the wage of a certain job, maybe they should get the credentials to do that job. I don't expect the pay of a job I'm not qualified for, that's not terribly logical.

Anyway, I have to disagree with the theory that EK targets price-conscious pax. Their ticket prices are consistently higher than most competitors. What they do have, is proximity to massive populations and ideal central geography to connect ridiculous numbers of city pairs.
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#43 Post by Eric Janson » Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:51 pm

complexintentions wrote:Anyway, I have to disagree with the theory that EK targets price-conscious pax. Their ticket prices are consistently higher than most competitors. What they do have, is proximity to massive populations and ideal central geography to connect ridiculous numbers of city pairs.
My company always looks for the cheapest possible tickets.

I have positioned once on KLM to Dubai - the rest of the time I position on Emirates. My tickets are always return from Dubai - maybe that's a cheaper option.

Back on topic.

I don't know anyone making the kind of salaries some people are quoting - I'm certainly not.

Basic Salary at Emirates is DHS 42015/month which is just under U$11500/month based on 85 hours/month.

http://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/eng ... efits.aspx

Most Expat contracts have a Basic Salary between U$10k - U$15k.

Some people will add in the housing allowance or other benefits. That's fine as long as there is a clear breakdown - instead of just a large number.

Other benefits will depend on who you work for.

As I've said before be careful about these Chinese jobs advertising a high salary - the numbers are meaningless without a breakdown of how this amount is calculated imho. Most of these contracts are not as advertised - the reality can be very different.

Too many Pilots just look at the money and nothing else. A little research can save you a lot of trouble imho.
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#44 Post by crazyaviator » Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:09 pm

i highly doubt crazyaviator gets any choice in whom he gets to share beers with. Who wants to spend time with a jealous little shit-stirrer like that?
Am i jealous of a fat cat politician, of a CEO that makes 20-30 times more than the average skilled worker below him/her ?
Jealous of people receiving huge incomes or corrupted funds for no work at all? NO im not jealous, im pissed !!
As far as pilots are concerned, they have EARNED the right for a PROPER pay scale As far as AME s are concerned, they also have earned the right to a proper pay scale. Many AME s are under paid and Many pilots are paid MORE than an overworked Doctor who needs to know more and deals with life and death much more than pilots ( most pilots life and death experiences are their own fault) 12-15 duty days a month and many pilots cannot get it together and manage their own life. On their 2nd, 3rd divorce , making $300,000.00 and still needing $$$ after 65,,, while their company young pilots are living with mom and dad or eating kraft dinner,,,,No, im not jealous , im past being amused at the hypocrisy !! :P
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#45 Post by complexintentions » Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:36 pm

Meh. Life's too short to get pissed about stuff like that. Why not try to get one of those jobs instead of ranting about them? Or is that the new Canadian thing, to blame everyone else for your lesser wage? No wonder the NDP is doing so well in the polls. Seems pretty sad to jump into a discussion about one specific flying job ad and hijack it with whining about "asshole" pilots. I'm pretty sure every occupation has their share of said arse-heads. For example, apparently you've decided you will represent the AME's. :mrgreen:

I wouldn't put doctors on too high a pedestal though. Best friend is a GP in Ontario and he would be the first to admit his life has been much easier than mine, coasted through med school, job assured at graduation, good salary right away, great pension, job for life...none of these exist in most flying careers. He certainly didn't have to leave his home country just to make a living, as I did. Don't even try to suggest he works more than I do, that's a joke.

As far as life and death, unless you're an ER doc it's just like flying, mostly mundane with the odd situation that becomes dire. Except, that a pilot can kill hundreds with a mistake while a doc, usually just in single digits. So who has has the greater responsibility to not make an error?

Anyway, enough feeding the troll. I'm sure there's some boring story behind the chip on your shoulder, but I still like most AME's I deal with.
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#46 Post by timel » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:41 am

I think Crazyaviator is just having some fun.
Or is that the new Canadian thing, to blame everyone else for your lesser wage? No wonder the NDP is doing so well in the polls.
It is hard to negotiate your wages when your government is Conservative.
http://business.financialpost.com/news/ ... -work-bill
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#47 Post by crazyaviator » Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:34 am

I think Crazyaviator is just having some fun.
:P Ive been exposed!
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#48 Post by crazyaviator » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:40 pm

Good rebuttal complex ! :)
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#49 Post by complexintentions » Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:58 pm

Ah, the ol' "I was just kidding around" defence. Got it! :lol:

Since the thread drift seems complete, if you really want to get paid well and retire early, maybe you should have been a teacher...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-de ... e26342014/
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Re: 777 captain for $175K

#50 Post by CaptainHaddock » Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:10 pm

Most WJ skippers gross in the $250000.00 range give or take $20 or $30 depending on years of service and O/T. Plus part of the gross includes the company 20% employee share purchase plan top up. So the actually money in the bank after everything is said and done is considerably less. As for the 2 1/2 weeks off, just flying their block they work about around 160 days a year. (15-16 days a month 6 months of the year, and 11 days for 6 months of the year).
So you would make a lot more cash in hand doing the contract work, but you would be bagged and away a lot more time. The fellow saying he made $340000.00 would be top pay scale, probably dropping straight time flying and picking up a ton of O/T (so he is probably bagged and away most of the time too).

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