2013 and 2014 stats on Sunwing hiring pratices

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Gilles Hudicourt
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2013 and 2014 stats on Sunwing hiring pratices

#1 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:35 pm

Sunwing has always required at least an ATPL and at least 3000 hours Total Time whenever it advertised for new pilots in Canada. Claiming it could not find qualified pilots in Canada, Sunwing has, for nearly 10 years, been hiring seasonal foreign pilots from Europe. I decided to take a look at what kind of pilots they had been hiring overseas. One place I could look was in the forms they fill out with Transport Canada, to request the Foreign Licence Validation Certificate (FLVCs) for those foreign pilots. I sent an Access to Information Request some months ago to obtain Sunwing's 2013 and 2014 FLVC applications. I just received them in the mail, which is why I am posting this now.

In 2013 they applied for 119 FLVCs from Transport Canada. At least 33 of the foreign applicants only had a Commercial Pilots Licence, not an ATPL.
In 2014, they applied for 111 FLVCs from Transport Canada. At least 37 of the foreign applicants only had a Commercial pilots licence.

Are there any Canadian Licenced pilots flying for Sunwing today who do not have an ATPL ? I highly doubt it. Another double standard from our friends at Sunwing.

Canadians pilots need 3000 hours and an ATPL, even to fly as First Officers. Foreigners, however, are ok to come and fly for Sunwing with just a Commercial Pilots Licence.

Canadian Seasonal pilots are barred from flying as captains. Foreign Seasonal pilots were allowed to fly as Captains.

I really hope that is this nonsense is now in the past and that I will no longer have to post these things here......
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scopiton
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Re: 2013 and 2014 stats on Sunwing hiring pratices

#2 Post by scopiton » Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:50 pm

A new challenge for you, and they could come in far bigger numbers.
Good luck !

http://www.ledevoir.com/economie/actual ... -air-china
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Sky_Conqueror
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Re: 2013 and 2014 stats on Sunwing hiring pratices

#3 Post by Sky_Conqueror » Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:46 pm

Greetings Gilles Hudicourt,

Thanks for posting in regards to this subject. I am person who loves statistics. I am outrages by these findings. Outrages for the whole Canadian pilot community. This should make news headlines in every major media broadcasting and newspaper in the country. The Conservatives didn't seem to give a damn about this issue, even though small efforts were done.
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luyul
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Re: 2013 and 2014 stats on Sunwing hiring pratices

#4 Post by luyul » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:30 pm

Seeing as they are no longer taking foreign pilots it IS a thing of the past and I don't see the point your post other than to smear Sunwing.
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Re: 2013 and 2014 stats on Sunwing hiring pratices

#5 Post by North Shore » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:44 pm

scopiton wrote:A new challenge for you, and they could come in far bigger numbers.
Good luck !

http://www.ledevoir.com/economie/actual ... -air-china
You pays your money, and you takes your chances...
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Re: 2013 and 2014 stats on Sunwing hiring pratices

#6 Post by scopiton » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:46 pm

Might be because AT will post less than expected results. We'll see.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: 2013 and 2014 stats on Sunwing hiring pratices

#7 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:27 am

luyul wrote:Seeing as they are no longer taking foreign pilots it IS a thing of the past and I don't see the point your post other than to smear Sunwing.
Hello luyul. I'm glad I was able to inspire you to finally post something for the first time in the 10 years you've been silently lurking on AvCanada. I guess this must have hit a raw nerve.....
I know many people just cannot stand the position I have taken and feel propelled to take action to stop me in my tracks. I respect that.

FYI, the last Suwning TFW was denied based on current information available to EDSC, and much of it probably related to the 70+ Canjet B737NG type rated pilots who had recently been laid off and who, for the most part, were not were not being hired by Sunwing, which was saving most of those slots for TFW pilots from Europe.

It was not stated that the denial was based on any permanent change of policy at ESDC. Any future LMIA application could still be approved. Sunwing is free to apply for new LMIA today, next month or next year and these will be evaluated and possibly aproved by ESDC based on information they have at their disposal. This is why we must make sure that those whose job it is to evaluate any future application are fully aware of what really went on.

EDSC is not involved in licensing and has no way to know that Sunwing advertised for ATPL rated pilots with 3000+ hours in Canada, turned down ATPL rated 3000+ hours Canadian pilot who applied in response to the advertisements and then turned around and hired CPL rated TFW European pilots with god know how many hours of experience instead of the Canadian ATPL rated pilots.

Transport Canada who know that Sunwing has been importing CPL rated TFW pilots from Europe all along, is not necessarily aware that Sunwing had advertised for ATPL 3000+ hour pilots, had turned down Canadian pilots with those minimum credentials, and had, in many instances, hired low time CPL rated foreign pilots instead.
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Re: 2013 and 2014 stats on Sunwing hiring pratices

#8 Post by aerosexual » Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:22 am

Just because Gilles assumes, alleges or twists information does not make it factual, no matter how long the rant may be.
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Re: 2013 and 2014 stats on Sunwing hiring pratices

#9 Post by ea306 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:07 am

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Are there any Canadian Licenced pilots flying for Sunwing today who do not have an ATPL ? I highly doubt it. Another double standard from our friends at Sunwing.

Canadians pilots need 3000 hours and an ATPL, even to fly as First Officers. Foreigners, however, are ok to come and fly for Sunwing with just a Commercial Pilots Licence.

Canadian Seasonal pilots are barred from flying as captains. Foreign Seasonal pilots were allowed to fly as Captains.

I really hope that is this nonsense is now in the past and that I will no longer have to post these things here......
Although the above is what the posted minimum experience and qualifications being sought after by the company....not all Canadian Pilots hired have had that minimum. Some with less...much less even. So is it fair to insinuate that the EU FOs are less experienced than our own counter parts?
Based on what I have been told by fellow FCM..SUNWING have hired a hand full of Canadian CPL pilots over the years. Yes most did have ATPL when hired...but not everyone. I know some of these individuals personally.

Have also flown with a number of TFW with the "Frozen ATPL" with say a 1000 or 1200 hours total time. But is it a fair comparison of experience or qualification when most of that experience is on the B737NG? I can tell you that right now I see a lot of new joiners without jet experience. I know which one is going to be needing to be watched more carefully. All of those without previous jet experience as none are TFW this season.

There is no basis to suggest that safety of the general public has been put at risk. Transport Canada allows for a Commercial Pilot to be a First Officer on a Transport Catagory aircraft with the IATRA exam written...without any Transport Catagory Jet experience. Those TFW guys have been flying Transport Catagory since before the ink dried on their pilots licence.

Will there be any Contract Captains flying at Air Transat this winter?
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Re: 2013 and 2014 stats on Sunwing hiring pratices

#10 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:11 am

ea306 wrote:
Will there be any Contract Captains flying at Air Transat this winter?
I don't know. They tried to hire some and I think it didn't work. But that's ok, as long as we don't then allow Foreign contact captains instead.
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Re: 2013 and 2014 stats on Sunwing hiring pratices

#11 Post by ea306 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:03 am

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
ea306 wrote:
Will there be any Contract Captains flying at Air Transat this winter?
I don't know. They tried to hire some and I think it didn't work. But that's ok, as long as we don't then allow Foreign contact captains instead.
Gilles Hudicourt wrote:

That would be a very interesting turn of events if it did.

Either way, would not TS consider seasonal upgrades of their own FOs before looking for outside help? Or are the FOs at TS ok with that?
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Re: 2013 and 2014 stats on Sunwing hiring pratices

#12 Post by Sky_Conqueror » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:31 pm

Well, we can see that all of this has been done seemingly in secret, away from official eyes for some time. Personally, I think this concept has hurt the Canadian Aviation industry in many ways. The first, by bypassing those 3000 Hours to people who were under high brackets ''under-qualified'' and secondly by taking away possibilities for Canadian pilots to have access to jobs. When I say under-qualified, I do not bash people with lower time but I want to underline the breach of said regulations for the pilot requirements for Europeans vs. Canadians. Up to some time ago, there where more than enough qualified 3000 hour + pilots to fill those positions. Now with our current pilot supply scenery changing, it might be a different story.

It all comes down to money once again. Its way more cost effective to hire some pilots that are type rated already than having to train 114 pilots for a 6 month contract. Sunwing is notorious for firing people that seem not to fit ''company profile'' without warning. So based on this mentality, spending 20 000 dollars for a guy who might not be hired for the the next season does not seem feasible. Under very basic calculations, training 114 guys would cost more than 2 million of our beloved low Canadian dollars. Under a corporate money saving mentality: hiring typed rated guys is the more accepted way to go.

Soooo...Seems that Sunwing has to change its strategy. To what extend? I currently have no idea. Are they still allowed to bring in a few internationals? Could someone please clarify? I know for a fact that Transat had leasing agreements with Air France subsidiary Transavia for a few 737's. I remember seeing a few in YYC last year. I wonder if that still runs this year although It seems they acquired more of there own 737s.
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Re: 2013 and 2014 stats on Sunwing hiring pratices

#13 Post by ea306 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:41 pm

No TFW Hired for this season. Just WetLease aircraft.
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Re: 2013 and 2014 stats on Sunwing hiring pratices

#14 Post by aerosexual » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:00 pm

Sunwing is notorious for firing people that seem not to fit ''company profile'' without warning.


I've seen this posted on AvCanada before, and it's simply not true.
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Re: 2013 and 2014 stats on Sunwing hiring pratices

#15 Post by mantogasrsrwy » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:27 pm

Unsubstantiated baloney spouted on AvCanada to further someones argument, who would have thought. :smt014
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Re: 2013 and 2014 stats on Sunwing hiring pratices

#16 Post by trey kule » Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:01 am

Unsubstantiated baloney spouted on AvCanada to further someones argument, who would have thought. :smt014
Lol.

I think its great that an employee of one company continually monitors the competition and do whatever they can to make trouble for them. Far better than keeping their own house in order.
And we all know that this is completely and unselfishly done for the good of all Canadian pilots.

Personally I think we should all just demand Sunwing be completely shut down...that will teach them a lesson. But what company would rise to the challange of taking over their business?
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Re: 2013 and 2014 stats on Sunwing hiring pratices

#17 Post by loopa » Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:05 am

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