Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

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Gilles Hudicourt
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Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#1 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:00 am

Now that the winter season is in full swing, the Sunwing fleet seems to have stabilized at 38 aircraft: 33 Canadian registered aircraft and 5 wet-leases. Of the five wet-leases, four are from Czech based Travel Service and one is from UK's Thomson.

How many Canadian pilots are on roster this year ? How many of those are permanent, how many are seasonal (for now) ?
How many pilots were hired since June 2015 ?
How many pilots were upgraded to Captain since June 2015 ?

How have things changed for the pilots (for better or worse) without the 100+ foreign pilots this year as far as scheduling, work conditions, bases, quality of life etc ?

Gilles
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MUSKEG
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#2 Post by MUSKEG » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:34 am

How have things changed for the pilots (for better or worse)

Asking how things have got " better" on this forum is laughable.
Bitch and moan should be the thread lead in.
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#3 Post by FOD_Vacuum » Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:51 pm

If it helps, two of my buddies were hired on at Sunwing, both with 3000-3500 TT and a couple hours multi turbine pic. Both Canadian youngsters, hired within the last couple months without a 37 NG type rating.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#4 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:26 pm

No one dares I see. If I was to ask how many pilots there were at any other company, many people would reply. Transat has about 520 now. It's no secret and no one will get in trouble for stating it......

Let's try a test : How many pilots at

Jazz ?
Rouge ?
Air Canada ?
Air Inuit ?
First Air ?
Canadian North ?
Porter ?
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#5 Post by POPANDCHIPS » Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:24 pm

Life at Sunwing is a great job. Awesome people to work with, a great schedule, and the money is good too. As for the change with the TFW situation it hasn't had any positive impact on Sunwing pilots that I have seen. Our relative seniority has gone down due to 2 separate lists and pilots have been displaced from Winnipeg. im unsure of overall numbers on foreigners but I don't think there is any major change in that regard. Efficiency also suffers when crews can't work together like we have for many years. Also it never hurts to have a Canadian in the cockpit when it's a dark and dirty night in the middle of winter.
I'm not sure if any Canadian jobs were created with the changes, but If so than it is a good thing. As far as the day to day life of a Sunwing pilot it is pretty dam good but the wet leases havn't had a positive impact IMHO.
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#6 Post by wyndham » Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:29 am

With the wet leases there are supposedly a few more foreign pilots in Canada working for Sunwing this winter than there would have been with the dry leases. That's just what's been said by upper, whether it's more than last year or more than would have been this year had the foreign workers been allowed in I'm not sure. The above post is also all correct. I think there was about 80 contract hires for this winter.
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#7 Post by watermeth » Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:37 am

Do you guys know how many of those canadian seasonal pilots will keep their job at the end of the season ?
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#8 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:38 am

Last year, Sunwing had imported about 120 TFW pilots, in addition to having wet leased 4 Travel Service aircraft, which historically came with 14 pilots each, for a grand total of about 176 foreign pilots.

This year, with just 5 wet leases, there should be about 72 foreign pilots.

Also historically, Sunwing has operated at 12 pilots per Canadian registered aircraft. At 33 aircraft, there should be about 396 Canadian pilots.
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#9 Post by aerosexual » Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:45 am

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:No one dares I see. If I was to ask how many pilots there were at any other company, many people would reply. Transat has about 520 now. It's no secret and no one will get in trouble for stating it......
It's not about getting in trouble Gilles. It's that you have a history of manipulating information for your benefit rather than having a frank discussion and working together with your industry peers. For example, now that Air Transat is using wet-leases with crew, wet-leases are no longer bad, but they were before.

The above posts are true regarding this season at Sunwing. There are positives as well. More pilots were hired, although the additional jobs are seasonal positions that will see layoffs in the spring. The same story for captain upgrades. How many of these are as a result of the TFW rejection is unknown.
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#10 Post by sluggo » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:59 am

aerosexual wrote:It's not about getting in trouble Gilles. It's that you have a history of manipulating information for your benefit rather than having a frank discussion and working together with your industry peers. For example, now that Air Transat is using wet-leases with crew, wet-leases are no longer bad, but they were before.
To this ... It truly would be better if we were actually able to have an constructive liaison amongst Canadian pilots to provide appropriate, effective solutions to issues, such as TFWP abuse, in order to protect and develop our profession. Are we there yet? ... In absence of this, only very few people have a moral compass strong enough and the guts to openly put their name to their cause and efforts. If I am not mistaken, Gilles appears to be one of the only guys who is actually doing something for us to battle unacceptable industry practice.

Do you really think Sunwing's non-qualification for the TFWP this season hasn't benefitted all Canadian and, in particular, Sunwing's pilots? Do you think this would have happened if there weren't such individuals repeatedly exposing the issue to the public eye? ... Thot not.

Do you really think that Air Transat pilots feel it is "ok" to be stuck with the business practice of using foreign wet leases? It's hardly believable that this would have ever occurred without the model being inevitably imposed by the competition. You've got to fight that, yo. Whether you are a Canadian at Transat, Sunwing or anywhere else. We all know this.
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#11 Post by Old fella » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:04 am

Sunwing had best get its shit together on customer service post haste. That debacle in Hamilton other week left people fuming, I know of somebody whose son and his wife were on that very trip and believe me word is getting out. AC and/or WJ is the way for your vacation is the direction bantied about.
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#12 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:31 am

aerosexual wrote:It's that you have a history of manipulating information for your benefit rather than having a frank discussion and working together with your industry peers. For example, now that Air Transat is using wet-leases with crew, wet-leases are no longer bad, but they were before.
You accuse me of manipulating information and do it yourself in the same breath.

Quote me where I said wet-leases were bad and are now ok.

The truth is wet leases were used in the past by many airlines including Transat, West-jet, Sunwing etc. I never said they were bad.

What I did oppose, is when the law firm representing Sunwing interpreted the Air Transportation Regulations (ATR) and the Act in a manner that would have allowed Sunwing (or any Canadian airline) to wet-lease any number of foreign aircraft it desired. That interpretation of the ATR would have allowed Sunwing to own and operate one single B737 and wet-lease 35 foreign aircraft. That claim made my hair stand on end and I was much relieved when ALPA and just about every major airline in Canada lobbied the Federal Transport Minister to publish a new policy that prevented such a scenario, which he promptly did, publishing new guidelines limiting the number of foreign Wet-Leases to 20% of one's Canadian registered fleet at the time of application.
I then protested when Sunwing was allowed not once but several times and contrary to the terms of the new Wet-Lease policy, to apply for a number of foreign wet-leases that was superior to 20% of its fleet at the time of application, and also when the CTA gave them repeated relief from the requirement to apply at least 45 days before the arrival date of the first aircraft, as is required by the ATR.
But I never opposed wet-leases per se.
It seems that this season, Sunwing complied not only with the 20% policy, but also with the 45 day requirement, although I haven't yet seen the exact application dates of the last arrivals.

Air Transat wet-leased 2 aircraft (it would be allowed 7 according to the Wet-Lease Policy) and applied inside of the 45 days limit.
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#13 Post by OPEC6-Heavy » Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:06 pm

Hey Old Fella,
Sunwing has its "shit together". With 30,000 plus flight a year we have at least one that makes the news, ohh my god. Especially when weather is involved, you should know better... AC and WJ can't even come close to Sunwing's Vacation product, proofs in the pudding. I won't go further into detail.

Gilles,
I have such a good laugh when I hear a Transat TVS wet-lease on the radio with a thick Czech accent. LOL

Gilles I think the point is you object to Foreigners flying airplanes in Canada. Wet-leases go against this thought process, regardless of what mechanism is used to come here.
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#14 Post by aerosexual » Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:09 pm

Grumpy Old Fella, you better avoid Air Canada too. I wouldn't want you to suffer with their atrocious customer service. (Disclaimer, of course I don't feel this way about Air Canada)

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/02 ... hours.html

All airlines have incidents like this, and yes it's embarrassing. I'd love to know what really happened, but it sounds like a bunch of things out of the airline's control happened that day. Hopefully lessons were learned in order to avoid similar situations in the future. You have a hate on for Sunwing and that's okay, but to suggest Air Canada, or Westjet are devoid of such occurrences is ridiculous.

Gilles, you know full well that you used safety as a concern for wet leases in the past. Sunwing pilots have in fact argued that TFW pilots are safer than wet-lease pilots, or at least there is an additional layer of oversight as TFW pilots fly Canadian registered airplanes and have to pass their PPC's accordingly. This has been discussed in detail.

Sluggo, I am in full agreement with your post. My point is Gilles is very selective in his arguments, and his fight is for his own benefit rather than the industry at large. If he had more constructive dialogues, I would be okay with it. I have tried, even through PM with Gilles, but unsuccessfully so. That is where his moral compass is unfortunately lacking.
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#15 Post by jjj » Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:13 pm

So what do the Sunwing guys make?

I have no idea of any contract details. Hourly rates, credit system, seniority, days off, draft, OT?

If there is a thread or document link with the details please let me know.

JJJ
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#16 Post by rudder » Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:23 pm

wyndham wrote:With the wet leases there are supposedly a few more foreign pilots in Canada working for Sunwing this winter than there would have been with the dry leases. That's just what's been said by upper, whether it's more than last year or more than would have been this year had the foreign workers been allowed in I'm not sure. The above post is also all correct. I think there was about 80 contract hires for this winter.

A higher ratio of pilots per aircraft are required on European registration wet lease as the crews must operate to JAA FT/DT limits which are far more restrictive than CAR's FT/DT.

It would appear that total wet lease pilot staffing is less than the TFWP applications submitted that were denied. It may also be the case that SWG modified its planned winter fleet total as a result of the TFWP rejections.
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#17 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:31 pm

jjj wrote:So what do the Sunwing guys make?

I have no idea of any contract details. Hourly rates, credit system, seniority, days off, draft, OT?

If there is a thread or document link with the details please let me know.

JJJ
The contracts of federally unionized companies are public and published......

http://negotech.labour.gc.ca/eng/agreem ... 32401a.pdf
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#18 Post by Old fella » Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:51 pm

Mr Heavy and Mr Sex:

When passengers have to resort to a 9-1-1 call for emergency assistance after being left sitting on a parked aircraft for 7 hrs at a Canadian airport, I give you the privilege of defending Sungwing by all means. Yes, I condemn any airline for such treatment there is absolutely no reason why any airline should resort to such, there has to be better ways especially at Pearson. if airlines were decent, those people who endured such situations of being isolated should be given a complete refund on their next trip.
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#19 Post by watermeth » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:05 pm

click on the link provided by aerosexual.
you may have never heard about it but you can read it.
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#20 Post by DutyFree » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:22 pm

You guys are right, Sunwing really needs to get their act together!!!

http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/world/story/1.737564

Cran said one of the worst stories has been about an Air Canada flight that spent 12 hours on the tarmac at Vancouver International Airport with its passengers trapped inside throughout the delay.

Some passengers have said they felt like "hostages" because they were told they had to stay on the plane.

"Keeping people prisoner on an airplane for 12 hours on the tarmac is absolutely outrageous, I don't know how [Air Canada] think they had the right to do that," Cran said.


Check ur biases at the door lads!

Cheers
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#21 Post by aerosexual » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:42 pm

Old fella wrote:Mr Heavy and Mr Sex:

When passengers have to resort to a 9-1-1 call for emergency assistance after being left sitting on a parked aircraft for 7 hrs at a Canadian airport, I give you the privilege of defending Sungwing by all means. Yes, I condemn any airline for such treatment there is absolutely no reason why any airline should resort to such, there has to be better ways especially at Pearson. if airlines were decent, those people who endured such situations of being isolated should be given a complete refund on their next trip.
Grumpy Fella, like I said I am embarrassed by what happened in YHM, but do you really believe that the 9-1-1 call is what got the passengers off? And that nobody was doing anything about the situation from the pilots, to the F/A's, to OCC, to anybody at Sunwing or the ground staff, perhaps sitting on their thumbs waiting for spring, until passengers called 9-1-1? It's really unfortunate that a half hour tech stop turned into 7 or 8 hours on the tarmac and a hotel stay before passengers continued their journey home. Perhaps Sunwing and Air Transat should split A310's for these routes :)
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#22 Post by cdnpilot77 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:31 am

Old fella wrote:Sunwing had best get its shit together on customer service post haste. That debacle in Hamilton other week left people fuming, I know of somebody whose son and his wife were on that very trip and believe me word is getting out. AC and/or WJ is the way for your vacation is the direction bantied about.
Short of serving broken glass as your inflight meal, If it's cheaper, the people will come, regardless of the level of service. <Cough>RyanAir<cough>
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#23 Post by Old fella » Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:20 am

cdnpilot77 wrote:
Old fella wrote:Sunwing had best get its shit together on customer service post haste. That debacle in Hamilton other week left people fuming, I know of somebody whose son and his wife were on that very trip and believe me word is getting out. AC and/or WJ is the way for your vacation is the direction bantied about.
Short of serving broken glass as your inflight meal, If it's cheaper, the people will come, regardless of the level of service. <Cough>RyanAir<cough>
CDN77, I suspect or better still agree that you are quite right, this will probably be forgotten in due time sadly. I don't care who says what or whatever the multitude of excuses,I feel being stranded on a parked aircraft for 7-8 hrs in order for those responsible to figure out what's going down is extremely dangerous to the health of people and unsafe. I don't usually advocate the lawyer route but this time such action is warranted. Airlines have to get the message.
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#24 Post by Pete » Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:24 am

Gilles,

What is the difference between Sunwing wet leases and the wet lease Transat has with Czech TVS? I don't want to hear "well that's only a couple aircraft". Numbers are irrelevant at this point now that Transat is doing the same thing. So should this thread.
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Re: Sunwing fleet and pilot rosters for the 2015/2015 season

#25 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:50 am

Pete wrote:Gilles,

What is the difference between Sunwing wet leases and the wet lease Transat has with Czech TVS? I don't want to hear "well that's only a couple aircraft". Numbers are irrelevant at this point now that Transat is doing the same thing. So should this thread.
None. Except that Sunwing has been wet-leasing several foreign aircraft every year since Jan 2012 (now in its fifth season), and Transat is doing it for the first time this winter (2 aircraft) and hopefully for the last time.
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