Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

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Mig29
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Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#1 Post by Mig29 » Tue Mar 22, 2016 4:04 pm

https://www.rt.com/news/336514-flydubai ... gue-crash/

Reading on PPrune, this crazy rostering is happening at Emirates as well.
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#2 Post by awitzke » Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:40 pm

Do Fly Dubai and other airlines like Air Arabia and Emirates have non punitive overshoot and diversion policies? Or are the pilots there in fear for their jobs for not getting the plane to the destination?
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#3 Post by TeePeeCreeper » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:32 pm

^ Not sure about those carriers, but if you are 'going around or 'diverting when flying into OMAA or OMDB you can bet your bottom dollar that you'll be asked by the tower what caused you to do so.
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#4 Post by GRK2 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:39 pm

To answer the question regarding a non punitive policy about go arounds...yes, all Gulf Carriers have one...ever since the GF 072 crash the policy has been developed to allow for a go around for any reason. The "stabilized approach" standard allows for a G/A if you are not stabilized by the standard allowed for the type of approach and aircraft. A G/A is not supposed to be questioned by the airline. Simply do it and the issue is supposed to be over. Some pilots still have the old school worries, and I'm sure some managers do as well. The idea is that the "Just Culture" safety policy is that if one admits a mistake rather than cover it up, the company will support you. I fully believe that the FlyDubai pilots fulfilled that part, but really wonder if commercial pressures to get the job done played any part in this tragedy. Personally a 2 hour hold is waaaaay longer than I would have liked, and likely would have bailed 60 minutes earlier. Too many " what ifs" for my liking. Too bad if the day ended somewhere else with a crew out of time...at least we'd all be alive to talk about it...
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#5 Post by Eric Janson » Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:16 pm

There's plenty online about the company culture at the various ME Airlines. Sadly a lot of people can't or won't believe it.

Ops calls the shots - you have very limited authority as Captain.

Good that some brave people are coming forward.

It will take more accidents before any meaningful changes are made imho.
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#6 Post by GRK2 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:28 pm

Commercial pressures have been around for ages, and Ops has a voice in the decision making process, there's nothin' new there. It's up to the flight deck crew to put their collective feet down and say "no" or "too bad" or "not now" when OPs/ rostering/dispatch/planning/whatever gets their noses in the business when the crap is in the breeze. They are welcome to ask but never will they have the authority to make a commercial based decision when the safest move is to divert, delay, or return etc. They have threatened to tattletale and mentioned loss of bonus etc but sorry, I don't play that way. Don't get me started about "performance based" bonuses for pilots. It's a tool used in a few companies in the ME...it's bloody shameful...performance based pay is for salespeople, or for those who have to justify a budget! Keep it out of my flight deck FFS...
Mic drop...rant over...
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#7 Post by complexintentions » Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:51 am

TeePeeCreeper wrote:^ Not sure about those carriers, but if you are 'going around or 'diverting when flying into OMAA or OMDB you can bet your bottom dollar that you'll be asked by the tower what caused you to do so.
Well, no. Most g/a's in Dubai are initiated by the controllers because a) they've fucked up the spacing and vectored you in too close or b) you're behind some shitty Indian low-cost that isn't following the speed instructions and dropped 30 knots at 5 mile final instead of doing their cleared 160 until 4, thus tightening the spacing to where a g/a is required. So, no, you won't "be asked by the tower" why you did it. Even if I were, I'd just ignore it, or answer the cryptic "operational reasons". Like, not landing on top of the Indigo still screwing the pooch on the runway.

Speaking only for Emirates, there is no commercial pressure to get to a specific destination. If a g/a is initiated above 2,000 feet you don't even have to file an ASR. I've never heard of anyone being challenged on why they went around. Now, carry on an unstable approach and land, and you WILL be in the office to explain. There is much to hate on the ME3 for their exhausting rostering practices and ridiculous rosters and pushing pilots to fly fatigued. But being challenged for diverting or going around isn't an issue. At EK, at least. And I wouldn't describe the captain's authority as "limited". Limited in support, perhaps. But I am still able to make whatever operational decision I deem necessary. I've never had to explain one, probably because all of my flights thus far have had a favourable outcome! :mrgreen: But even if I was challenged, and it led to me losing my job, so be it. I make the best decision I can, one I can always reasonably defend. That's what I'm paid for, and if they don't like it, they're free to replace me and see ya later, fine by me! Remember, your authority is never limited while you're in command of the aircraft - it's only your own lack of confidence in your decisions that limits you there. Only on the ground can they remove your authority - they aren't sitting in the front seats during the flight.

As far as the Fly Dubai crash, much is being made of the length of their hold. Yet does anyone actually know what there fuel state was? It's not uncommon to tanker very large amounts for certain sectors and carry enough fuel for the return sector - if that was the case then the hold time may have been perfectly reasonable. There is no specific length of time that I would consider "too long" for holding, it kinda depends on what I have in the tanks...
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#8 Post by Mig29 » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:17 am

Well, from what I read they took 8:02hr worth of fuel.

As for the length of holding, I may be wrong here, but I believe the "two hours" that everyone is talking about is from the time they tried their first approach, did a GA, went into holding and then try their last approach with a fateful GA. So looking at it from that perspective the hold itself was maybe 1-1:20hr.

But I'm glad that many guys are speaking out now, especially from Fly Dubai, regarding all the fatigue issues and disregard by their company. RT news has handled this quite respectively in my opinion.
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#9 Post by Eric Janson » Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:44 am

And now Emirates is in the spotlight....

https://www.rt.com/news/337128-emirates ... e-scandal/

More and more people coming forward.
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#10 Post by rxl » Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:08 pm

Why do pilots put up with this crap?
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#11 Post by complexintentions » Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:32 am

Could you be less specific? :mrgreen:
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#12 Post by Eric Janson » Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:20 am

rxl wrote:Why do pilots put up with this crap?
They don't - the Captain of the Flydubai aircraft had resigned. Others have done the same.

Pilots are also leaving Emirates in increasing numbers - in some case with no job to go to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uHwS4H ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#13 Post by Eric Janson » Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:48 am

Serious questions about conflict of interest in the UAE.....

https://www.rt.com/news/337388-emirates ... oversight/

I'm betting RT will not get the promised answer.
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#14 Post by tbaylx » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:59 am

Since EK moved the overtime threshold from 73 hours/month to 95 ish the path has been inevitable.

You can't fly 95+ hours of long haul without serious consequences to pilot health, family life and fatigue. It's been 6+ years now of those rosters and cracks are beginning to show both in recruitment, resignations and line pilots.
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#15 Post by Chris M » Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:51 am

tbaylx wrote:Since EK moved the overtime threshold from 73 hours/month to 95 ish the path has been inevitable.

You can't fly 95+ hours of long haul without serious consequences to pilot health, family life and fatigue. It's been 6+ years now of those rosters and cracks are beginning to show both in recruitment, resignations and line pilots.
For those of us who don't fly professionally, what would 95 hours of flying work out to as a total "at work" time? (ie; show up at airport to leave to go home). I'm just trying to put things in perspective compared to my desk job.
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#16 Post by Jean-Luc Monette » Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:28 pm

Chris M wrote:
For those of us who don't fly professionally, what would 95 hours of flying work out to as a total "at work" time? (ie; show up at airport to leave to go home). I'm just trying to put things in perspective compared to my desk job.
Unless you can transport your desk through multiple time zones, switch to day/night shifts twice during the same 6-8 days pairing, and multiple times within the same month, comparison is pointless...
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#17 Post by complexintentions » Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:41 pm

And then do it for years. Jean-Luc is correct, it is impossible to make a like-for-like comparison. But you can at least double the flight hours as a start for "at work" time. Don't forget the uncredited training (a PPC takes 8 hours of ground school and two 5-hour sims, often in the wee hours as well, every six months) and holiday time. (i.e. in a month with two weeks holiday, you'll fly far more than half of those hours in the other two weeks).

It's brutal, exhausting, and completely unsustainable. I'm one of the ones who walked. Screw 'em. Lots of jobs out there for heavy jet time. Thanks for the money and the experience, but I don't want to die young.
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#18 Post by Eric Janson » Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:04 am

complexintentions wrote:It's brutal, exhausting, and completely unsustainable. I'm one of the ones who walked. Screw 'em. Lots of jobs out there for heavy jet time. Thanks for the money and the experience, but I don't want to die young.
Good to hear!

Too many people just complain and complain and never do anything. Seen lots of those over the years.

Hope things work out for you complex - all the best.
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#19 Post by homesick » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:23 pm

This is an endemic problem in this part of the world.

The most crucial point in this farce is that the airlines in the region dictate to to the regulatory authority what they consider appropriate rather than the other way round. There is no recourse. No legal loophole that isn't covered. No amount of ASRs has made a dent on our working conditions.

The nature of ME ops consists of a significant portion of back of the clock red eye ops. That is an undisputed fact. Where things get hairy is when such an operation is equated to a routine 9-5 desk job. We get the same number of days off month as a desk jockey. I fail to see how that is in any way a safe and sustainable approach to a 24 hour operation.

My train set, which doesn't qualify amongst the ME3, employs identical dubious rostering practices. Frequent changes to day night patterns with minimum rest between consecutive duty periods.

Fatigue is a major issue with the crew in this region. The FZ accident was a tragic symptom of pushing the limits.

Yes, they had adequate fuel for holding. No one is disputing that fact. They followed their company SOPs. What I will dispute is the legitimacy of their roster patterns. I will dispute the punitive nature of of their operation which is emblematic of every ME airline. In this situation the crew were pushed to their limits. I personally have commenced an approach at 10am local after pulling my third consecutive all nighter and thought to myself, if we had a complicated non normal situation, I just might not be able to handle the situation as well as I'd like to. I grapple with this thought on a weekly basis. Nevertheless, we labour on.

The best way to talk is with your feet. Sometimes, that just isn't a viable option. I've come to a point where leaving the industry seems more viable than enduring these brutal conditions. For many, like me, personal circumstances restrict our options. But rest assured most of us are working on our exit plan.
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#20 Post by DutyFree » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:56 am

The money has gone down and thus in correlation, quality has followed! Guys are pulling runners at Cathay! Like Cathay for F sakes. That was once the pinnacle of careers... Not anymore I guess and so who keeps the C scale pay and 97hr roster?
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#21 Post by pigboat » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:57 am

Duplicate
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#22 Post by pigboat » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:02 am

Look at Qatar!

How many pilots have quit in the last 18 months.....Hundreds.
Do they follow a N.A. or European model of CRM culture?... No.
How many fired last year....near 100.

This is the way many of these carriers operate. Too many days on the road, DH for free, it all adds up to fatigue and poor schedules.
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Re: Flydubai crash....Fatigue reports?

#23 Post by Eric Janson » Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:28 pm

More info about the "culture" at Emirates...

https://donotflyemirates.wordpress.com/

Some of the links were blocked when I was in Dubai last week.
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