Where are these low hour direct entry pilot jobs?

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lucien_kane
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Where are these low hour direct entry pilot jobs?

#1 Post by lucien_kane » Tue May 10, 2016 9:38 am

Hello Everyone
I have been reading through a few topics regarding the whole new pilots entering the job market bit and i have found people who passionately argue against taking a ramp job and to look for direct entry pilot jobs; But where exactly are they?
Please help as I am myself going to start the job hunt and want all the help or advise any of you can provide before I set out on my resume tour.
ps: please don't use this thread to go off topic.
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#2 Post by ahramin » Tue May 10, 2016 10:31 am

I'm pretty sure they are reserved for pilots who don't use CAPS LOCK.

However, I never worked a ramp so here are some possibilities: My first job was skydivers at $5 a load. Then towing gliders at $5 a tow. Then King Air co-pilot and it's all gravy from there.

There is fire patrol. Scenic tours. Instructing. When I was looking for my first job I went through the TC Civil Aircraft Register and tried to call the owner of every commercially registered single engine piston in Western Canada.

It can take a few years. The trick is to be useful at something else so you have a decent job making decent money while turning down such offers as $40 a day Navajo co-pilot (That company killed 2 of the guys who took that job that year) or "Yeah we need rampies up here in Ft McMurray and you could be flying within a year. We can't pay you enough to cover rent though ... do you have any family that has a house here?" If one's only skill is flying airplanes though, maybe it makes sense to work one's ass off on the ramp making less money than burger flippers.
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#3 Post by cdnpilot77 » Tue May 10, 2016 10:39 am

Well that was certainly a condescending reply from a moderator.

First of all fire patrol is reserved for 1000hr pilot. Instructing isn't exactly "direct entry" as the rating will cost an extra $8k and some time to get the rating and sill job search. The others are pretty accurate.

As for what's out there, it's constantly changing and evolving of who has the spots. The only way to know is to call and talk to owners/Cp's or plan a road trip. It's a really tough thing to find that first job and even more so to find one in a seat. Patience, perseverance, forward thinking and the ability to carry yourself professionally in person or on the phone are all key. There are hundreds of others in the exact same position going for the same dozen jobs, so ask yourself what can you do that's different and set yourself ahead of the pack. Big important key: Email, is NOT the answer!!!

Best of luck!!
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#4 Post by jpilot77 » Tue May 10, 2016 11:30 am

Fire patrol in Ontario is reserved for 1000th hour pilots but not in QC.
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#5 Post by timel » Tue May 10, 2016 1:09 pm

In Quebec you don't need 1000 hours but they want you to pay for your 182 RG training and transport canada groundschool. It cost the poor guys who do that around 3500-4000$. You get paid 800$/2 weeks, for the season, the lucky ones make 150 hours, some other 20-30 depending on where you are based. You have to pay for your food and accommodations as well I think.

So it like paying to work while protecting the province from burning. Thanks so SOPFEU cheap asses or the operators no sharing the wealth.
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#6 Post by PropToFeather » Tue May 10, 2016 1:37 pm

lucien_kane wrote:I have been reading through a few topics regarding the whole new pilots entering the job market bit and i have found people who passionately argue against taking a ramp job and to look for direct entry pilot jobs; But where exactly are they?
I'll put it this way: some of those jobs are open for maybe a week. A lot of them might have a thought about opening one up when a pilot leaves, and might already have a list of resumes they want to call before even thinking of posting it. Some of them might even be as simple as "hey, I heard [blank] is finishing school, he/she's a pretty solid dude/dudette" - "oh yeah? give them a call, see if they want to hop on". The short answer is, if I (or, really, anyone else) tell you "Go to such-and-such place, talk to such-and-such", by the time you get there, there's going to be at least a few others that were closer - unless the job is in your back yard.

What I would personally recommend would be either a) make a solid resume that you could hand to any employer, and print a stack of them, or b) bring some sort of device with you that would let you edit it (and then stop by a copy shop in town to print it). And then, since you're already are planning to hit the road, as Nike commercials say, "Just Do It".

Edit: I'll also channel my inner Clippy here, and ask "It looks like you're posting about road trips. Have you read the sticky thread in the other forum?"
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#7 Post by Mercator » Tue May 10, 2016 3:09 pm

To simply answer your question, there are none. They are taken by 1000 hour instructors and float pilots.

Get a float rating with 50 hours or an instructor rating, it will cost you 10 K. Then go hunting for jobs I can bet you, you will find one in less than a month. Lots of movement for instructors and floats right now.

I can bet the average time for a Navajo FO gig, is around the 500-750 hour mark.

Entry level 200 hour jobs are like winning the lottery. You need to know a CP somewhere.

Going off topic now, this is still connected to your topic in a manner.

Supply & Demand- Unfortunately the pilot shortage seems like a scam, believe it or not when Jazz or similar airlines announce partnership with MRU or other universities for intake of there graduates,guess who wins.

Everyone except for those grads, Airlines may pick one odd 250 hour Low time FO once in a while to indicate the success of the program.

Yes diploma holders are preffered by airlines but then airlines hire them at atleast 2000-3000 hours. But the question is how do you get to 3000 hours when there are no jobs at 200 hours???

However still 100's of newbies sign up every year to those universities which offer a diploma at 100k and more for a degree.

This produces a huge number of qualified fresh CPL's every year keeping supply large along with ones from a flight school.
Airlines/ corporate/ cargo win as they offer 900 biweekly to a new FO as they got a stack of resumes to choose from if you are not happy with the wage, then next please.

There is no shortage in Canada, lots of pilots and no entry level 200 hour jobs.

There is no shortage worldwide in fact, EU / JAR freshers head to Susi air and Africa to fly in challenging conditions.

I guess get a float rating, instructor rating ( be prepared to live on 600 biweekly) or get shit on ramping it somewhere for 2 years plus (you will forget what a checklist looks like and will be a FO forever)
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#8 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Tue May 10, 2016 5:44 pm

I'll try to keep this general because I don't know where you live.

I started out at 210 hrs in
- Aerial photography (up to 500 hrs)
- Survey (up to 1000 hrs)

Walked in front door, shook hand and dropped off resume luckily 1 month prior to hiring.

Instructing is good if you have a guarantee and 10k.

Lots of unlisted aerial photography companies throughout Canada and they are a great time builder. Survey is good as well.

Time to get your nose to the grindstone.

S.
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#9 Post by DanWEC » Tue May 10, 2016 6:49 pm

Getting your first job without an existing "in" is the hardest part of anyone's aviation career. You have to work, network, travel, and work some more.
What sets you apart from 100 other people? You have to work harder, and smarter.
Prepare for a road trip by calling up every single piston operator in the country, as mentioned, off the registry. Good advice.

Did you end up with any good connections through training?
This is a good time for an entry level pilot!
Good luck.
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#10 Post by lucien_kane » Wed May 11, 2016 4:04 am

Thank you everyone for your great advice and words of encouragement. I did most of my training in the states so I never really made a lot of contacts. Can any one tell me where i can find this registry of 703 operators.
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#11 Post by timel » Wed May 11, 2016 7:34 am

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/C ... x?lang=eng

RAC section: 702-703-704 operators.
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#12 Post by lucien_kane » Wed May 11, 2016 8:13 am

Also does anyone have any recommendations for places who are known for hiring low hour pilots?
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#13 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Wed May 11, 2016 8:29 am

I think that's what people are trying to tell you.

<rant>

You gotta start calling, get out to the airports, and get networking. To my knowledge none of these (and I'm sorry to say it like this), pity posts are going to magically get you or anyone else who posts them, a job. People will pitch in advice about what sectors to look into for low time jobs, they've given you the TC registrar link to help you find some companies. There is pilotcareercenter that has a relatively...relatively ish up to date listing of some of the more common aviation companies in Canada.

Grab a part-time job if need be (I'm not saying it has to be ramping), but keep it close to the guys with the aircraft and the ability to nod you into the seats that count, get out there and show some work ethic. Get noticed.

Not one company I've worked for, have I known anyone in the company, nor anyone in the position to hire me prior to being offered an interview or an eventual job offer. Not one. I did my research, I picked up the phone, emailed as appropriate, or drove to network with the people that mattered. Its work, but it shows you want the job. Some guys get by with carpet bombing hundreds of companies like they are inquiring for a Kijiji ad. To each their own.

I wish you all the luck and success in your career. Perhaps networking in the U.S is a better option than in Canada, if you say that's where your initial experience was.

Good luck and safe flying Lucien.

S.
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#14 Post by flyingpilot9 » Wed May 11, 2016 11:02 pm

This aviation industry is such garbage, what makes aviation so much better then everything else
That we have to hand a resume in person ? Eastern Canada has a few low time companies that many people don't know much about. Personally, if you can avoid aviation in North America,do it.options in Canada are very limited and regionals have made it harder. Good luck.
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#15 Post by SuperchargedRS » Thu May 12, 2016 6:48 am

The first job is the hardest, many folks never make it past that point.

It's just a matter of tenacity and having some salesmanship / service industry personality traits.

I think one of the issues is that of parents and government paying for flight training, this causes many kids who have never had a real job before to go to school, get their CPL and be thrust out into a very dog eat dog industry, with little to no life or job skills. In the above situation of course it's going to be very hard to break into the industry, you don't yet have the tools to crack the nut.

My suggestion would be to do the road trip, and if you don't end up with a seat, go BARTEND or work in SALES, while you're looking and networking for that first flying job, the skills you'll learn as a bartender or car salesman will help you tons more than digging holes for some cheap deadbeat operator.
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#16 Post by TheStig » Fri May 13, 2016 7:06 am

I believe this is a great time to be entering the industry as Air Canada, Westjet and their associated connectors are all hiring large numbers of pilots. Prolonged hiring has a huge effect on helping everyone progress upwards. However, this might be oversold and over subscribed to some extent. While the job market is certainly better than it was after Sept 11th or in the early 90's, the industry has evolved since the 60s' and 70's. There are still plenty of pilots with over 4000 hours for WJ and AC to hire and I'd suspect pilots without ATPL's hired at Encore and Jazz are few and far between. So while there are plenty of careers options for 1500 hour pilots, you still, obviously, need to get to that experience level.

Entering the industry largely hasn't changed in the last 30 years, it's still tough and requires a little luck and timing to find a job (and persistence and hard work to advance from there). To the OP, you're a little behind the 8 Ball having completed your licensing in the US, as you mentioned you weren't able to make many connections in the Canadian industry. From my experience, the instructors and fellow students at the FTU you train are and will continue to be you're best resource through out your career. However, to the best of my knowledge, 703/704 operators do not actively recruit from Flight Schools! This puts you on an equal footing to any other low time pilot that shows up on the doorstep of a Northern Operator who just happens to have an opening.

There are some excellent threads on Road Trip etiquette, or better yet search 'Just Curious' for the Gold Standard (may he Rest in Peace).
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#17 Post by Old fella » Sun May 15, 2016 6:20 am

From somebody who was through it during the 70's, be prepared to go where the job(s) are. Also prepare yourself in that jobs may be in places remote/less desirable. Work hard at it and no doubt you will succeed with a fine career ahead of you as the rest of us had. The positives far outweigh the negatives despite some certain shitshows you will face.
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#18 Post by digits_ » Sun May 15, 2016 10:44 am

flyingpilot9 wrote:This aviation industry is such garbage, what makes aviation so much better then everything else
That we have to hand a resume in person ? Eastern Canada has a few low time companies that many people don't know much about. Personally, if you can avoid aviation in North America,do it.options in Canada are very limited and regionals have made it harder. Good luck.
So where would you recommend low time pilots go ? Europe ? Sure, if you want to spend another 60k CAD on a typerating and have a 5% chance of finding a job. Asia ? Not if you don't have 3000 hours on the big jets. Africa ? Good luck finding a job there without dropping off your resume in person. A road trip won't cut it, you'll have to pay for expensive airline tickets. South-America ? Lots of countries out there that only allow local citizens to fly commercially.

For a newbie pilot, Canada is one of the best places in the world to start in aviation. It is still messed up if you look at all the ramp schemes and low pay, but it is way better than anywhere else in the world. The only exception are cadet programs that guarantee a job on graduation, but getting in there is even harden than finding a job "the normal way". And for half of them you still have to pay an insane amount of money up front.
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#19 Post by lucien_kane » Wed May 18, 2016 4:05 am

Thank you everyone. I was also hoping to get information on the whole "ramp way up" and what are these jobs which require bonds?
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#20 Post by PropToFeather » Thu May 19, 2016 9:11 pm

lucien_kane wrote:Thank you everyone. I was also hoping to get information on the whole "ramp way up" and what are these jobs which require bonds?
Reading the last 5 pages of threads on this forum (as well as the front page of them in the Bush & Specialty Flying forum... and a good chunk of this thread!) will point you in the right direction.

Edit: If you're asking "what is this bond thing", the TL;DR is some companies will ask for money for training you on their plane. Some are in the form of up-front payment (that is repaid to you either at the end of the "bond period", or slowly through it), and others are in the form of a "promissory bond" (where you owe the company money if you leave before the bond term is up). Depending on your career plans, financial standing, and how good/scummy the operator with said bond is, it may or may not be worth signing on with one. YMMV
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#21 Post by SuperchargedRS » Fri May 20, 2016 7:05 am

lucien_kane wrote:Thank you everyone. I was also hoping to get information on the whole "ramp way up" and what are these jobs which require bonds?
I thought you went to school to learn how to fly and earned a CPL?

The story with those super low paying manual labor jobs, if you're a manual laborer you can get paid way more elsewhere digging holes and running odd jobs.

Bonds, well not many other professions require you to pay for a job, so bonds are really for suckers and paying a bond is being part of the problem in our industry, not being part of the solution.

Just hold out for a flying job, if you can't find one get a bartending job or something and keep looking, you'll find one and given X years you'll end up ahead of the ramp kids.
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#22 Post by timel » Fri May 20, 2016 10:22 am

SuperchargedRS wrote: Bonds, well not many other professions require you to pay for a job, so bonds are really for suckers and paying a bond is being part of the problem in our industry, not being part of the solution.
In an ideal world, I would say you are completely right. But we all know the reality.

Personally, I am not against signing a bound agreement with an operator requesting you to pay back for your training if you leave before the end of the term, on your side you know your training costed money and the operator values you.

I am against putting the money forward for a training ang getting it back at the end. This is putting the pilot into a situation that is awkward, honestly I even think this is poor hiring practices, it should be illegal.

We all know what happens to operators who don't have bonds, pilots come around, get the training and start sending resumes ASAP to whoever they think is better. As soon as they have an opportunity for bigger or better they go away.

It seems that in the UK, pilots used to have the training bounds, but they were able cancel them and tell their employers to go screw themselves up. Now it is normal to pay for their type ratings and some pay for their right seats...

In an ideal world, pilots would have one word and would stick with their engagements. In an ideal world employers would be all awesome and perfect.
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#23 Post by Mach1 » Mon May 23, 2016 7:29 pm

It all depends on how you define "Low Time."
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#24 Post by complexintentions » Tue May 24, 2016 1:18 am

SuperchargedRS wrote:
Bonds, well not many other professions require you to pay for a job, so bonds are really for suckers and paying a bond is being part of the problem in our industry, not being part of the solution.
Errr...many fields that involve an employer footing the bill for training/education come with contracts that stipulate minimum time of service expected and the financial penalties if not adhered to.

For example, the Canadian military comes to mind. Surely those officers getting degrees at RMC on the Queen's dime aren't part of the problem?

Don't like the terms of a contract, negotiate it or don't sign it. "Bonds are really for suckers" is kind of an immature view of the way the business world works.
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Re: WHERE ARE THESE LOW HOUR DIRECT ENTRY PILOT JOBS???

#25 Post by SuperchargedRS » Tue May 24, 2016 6:12 am

complexintentions wrote:
SuperchargedRS wrote:


Bonds, well not many other professions require you to pay for a job, so bonds are really for suckers and paying a bond is being part of the problem in our industry, not being part of the solution.
Errr...many fields that involve an employer footing the bill for training/education come with contracts that stipulate minimum time of service expected and the financial penalties if not adhered to.

For example, the Canadian military comes to mind. Surely those officers getting degrees at RMC on the Queen's dime aren't part of the problem?

Don't like the terms of a contract, negotiate it or don't sign it. "Bonds are really for suckers" is kind of an immature view of the way the business world works.
The queen personally cuts a check for their tuition? God bless her heart!.... Or is it stolen out of the people's pay checks?

Back to the subject,
How is it immature to not be taken advantage of?

The company I work for invested a considerable amount of money in my training and relocation costs, I signed that I would stay for atleast a year, which wasn't a issue because my job isn't one that has high turnover because of the QOL it provides.

That said if they would have asked me to pay for the privilege of working for them I would have told them to pound sand, luckily being a good and independtly successful company they don't play the training bond game.

Same lines, if you can't find a job, PM me and I'll set you up, I'll let you get an occasional hour in my amphib, I'll teach you to dig holes, when you're not flying the plane (which will be 98% of the time) you'll mow my lawn, rake pine needles, wash the plane and build fences, ofcourse if you don't already have years of experience in the above areas I'll need a $5,000 training bond, which will be paid back to you in 5 years at 0% interest, presuming I don't fire you first. Oh yes, no phone calls and you pay will be based on as little as I can legally pay you, uh, I mean based on experience :)
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