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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 8:28 am 
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SuperchargedRS wrote:
lucien_kane wrote:
Thank you everyone. I was also hoping to get information on the whole "ramp way up" and what are these jobs which require bonds?


Just hold out for a flying job, if you can't find one get a bartending job or something and keep looking, you'll find one and given X years you'll end up ahead of the ramp kids.


Worst advice ever. Not a very good gamble. Myself and many, many other "ramp kids" that I know worked 1-2 years on the ramp, and are now happily flying. We are now well ahead of the people who graduated from flight school at the same time and are not even working in this industry yet. AvCanada hates the ramp route, but it's worked out well for most people, believe it or not. It goes a lot faster than you think.


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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 3:32 pm 
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Never worked a ramp myself, think it was a few months between my CPL and my first job (flying not digging holes).


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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 6:02 pm 
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SuperchargedRS wrote:
Never worked a ramp myself, think it was a few months between my CPL and my first job (flying not digging holes).
Delighted to see you're a charter member of the "right time, right place" club.
Do you seriously think that positions you to lecture equally hard-working and qualified individuals who weren't as lucky?



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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 6:33 pm 
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I have to agree to disagree with SuperchargedRS and say that I think he's SuperchargedBS. Working ramp got me into a heavy in six years.


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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 7:44 pm 
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SuperchargedRS wrote:
complexintentions wrote:

Errr...many fields that involve an employer footing the bill for training/education come with contracts that stipulate minimum time of service expected and the financial penalties if not adhered to.

For example, the Canadian military comes to mind. Surely those officers getting degrees at RMC on the Queen's dime aren't part of the problem?

Don't like the terms of a contract, negotiate it or don't sign it. "Bonds are really for suckers" is kind of an immature view of the way the business world works.


The queen personally cuts a check for their tuition? God bless her heart!.... Or is it stolen out of the people's pay checks?

Back to the subject,
How is it immature to not be taken advantage of?

The company I work for invested a considerable amount of money in my training and relocation costs, I signed that I would stay for atleast a year, which wasn't a issue because my job isn't one that has high turnover because of the QOL it provides.

That said if they would have asked me to pay for the privilege of working for them I would have told them to pound sand, luckily being a good and independtly successful company they don't play the training bond game.



Try not to be obtuse. The point is that many industries and all levels of aviation enter into agreements between employers and employees that exchange subsidized training for the employee's commitment. It might be formal like a bond or a contract, or it may be low wages for the first couple years like AC/Westjet. At the entry level of the industry, yes, it may being exchanging labour on the ramp for the implicit chance at a flying position. All companies are looking for a return on their investment.

Counseling someone to rule out potential avenues to a foothold in an aviation career is foolish. Particularly when you seemingly offer no reason beyond "I didn't do that so you shouldn't". Of course it's better to get a flying position straightaway, people are just offering alternatives.

Incidentally, when I was initially hired as an FO on the B777 I signed a three-year bond. It was with that somewhat "independently successful" company, Emirates Airline. As I was able to upgrade to CA just as the bond was expiring, I didn't feel too "taken advantage of." No, not an entry-level position, just an illustration of how absurd some of your blanket statements are. Whether looking for your first job or with tons of experience, contractual obligations are a fact of life. The sooner one can learn to approach them professionally, the better.

Best of luck to the original poster.


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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 8:48 pm 
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I will add just a little detail to the training bound, most are fair for the employers and employees. Some can be excessive. If you ever have to sign one, PropToFeather gave a good adviice and it might be a good idea to do some research and make sure you are not getting a contract that is too excessive market wise.

I had 3 bounds so far, all of them were legit and I am very happy where I am today.



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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 11:13 pm 
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I didn't give a reason?

Well how bouts because digging holes and doing mindless manual labor that anyone who can fog a mirror could do doesn't have jack to do with aviation, all it proves is you are willing it take it up the tailpipe for your boss.

And you didn't end up in a heavy 6 years later because you fixed a outboard once, or because you chucked bags, you got where you got because of your ethic, how you handle the AIRCRAFT, your log book and your personality, if you would found a flying job a little sooner you would have been in that heavy sooner.

And it's got jack to do with luck, it has to do with not taking no for a answer, traveling to ANYWHERE there is a job and doing work, luck is a word for losers and fakes.

Just be willing to take it two steps further than the guy on your left and your right.


mantogasrsrwy wrote:
I have to agree to disagree with SuperchargedRS and say that I think he's SuperchargedBS. Working ramp got me into a heavy in six years.


Superchargedbs, wow, that's clever! You sure it wasn't that super sharp wit of yours that got you into the big iron?



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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 2:24 pm 
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Perhaps.


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 4:43 pm 
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Get a job as a bartender until you find a flying job?

This is poor advice.

That job isn't a guarentee and your wasting your time away from the industry while your buddies (who went the ramp route) have spent 6 months to a year learning how an operation works, building relationships/friendships with industry people and are now flying a plane.

but hey, you'll be able to whip them up a good drink when they come sit at your bar!



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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 2:09 am 
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SuperchargedRS wrote:
I didn't give a reason?

Well how bouts because digging holes and doing mindless manual labor that anyone who can fog a mirror could do doesn't have jack to do with aviation, all it proves is you are willing it take it up the tailpipe for your boss.

And you didn't end up in a heavy 6 years later because you fixed a outboard once, or because you chucked bags, you got where you got because of your ethic, how you handle the AIRCRAFT, your log book and your personality, if you would found a flying job a little sooner you would have been in that heavy sooner.

And it's got jack to do with luck, it has to do with not taking no for a answer, traveling to ANYWHERE there is a job and doing work, luck is a word for losers and fakes.

Just be willing to take it two steps further than the guy on your left and your right.




No one but you said anything about "taking it up the tailpipe", in fact using a phrase like that tells the rest of us a fair bit about you and what you do in your own time. But hey, no judgement! lol

But seriously, you're sounding pretty ridiculous the way you're directly contradicting yourself. You make this meathead tough-guy rant about "not taking no for answer and luck is for losers and taking it two steps further" blah blah blah. But apparently demonstrating your "ethic" with effort not related to aviation is worthless - is that it? Logic check, please.

Why does Canadian aviation always have this certain Don Cherry mouthbreather element? Is it the northern flying early on in the career? Mine tailings in the water supply? What?


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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 11:44 am 
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complexintentions wrote:
Why does Canadian aviation always have this certain Don Cherry mouthbreather element? Is it the northern flying early on in the career? Mine tailings in the water supply? What?


It's E-Thuggin of course

Image



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:48 am 
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I never understand the contempt you will find on this website for working the ramp to get to a flying job. "I'm trained to fly airplanes, not do manual labor!" :prayer: Congratulations. Did you know they sent a monkey to space before a human went?
There are obviously operators out there that will take advantage of you and if you fall for those ones it's as much your fault as theirs for not doing your research first. But there are plenty of operators that use the ramp as a tool to narrow the 250 wonders down to the ones who really want the job and are willing to prove themselves. And they do move you to a flying job in good time. That concept may seem repulsive to some, but until you run your own airline and hire your own pilots, who are you to judge? It's supply and demand in this game, and will stay that way.
From my first day on the ramp for a 704 operator with 250 hours to sitting in the right seat of an Air Canada A320 took me less than 7 years. And I have no shame at all for "putting my back into it." 8)



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:08 am 
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aV1aTOr wrote:
I never understand the contempt you will find on this website for working the ramp to get to a flying job. "I'm trained to fly airplanes, not do manual labor!" :prayer: Congratulations. Did you know they sent a monkey to space before a human went?
There are obviously operators out there that will take advantage of you and if you fall for those ones it's as much your fault as theirs for not doing your research first. But there are plenty of operators that use the ramp as a tool to narrow the 250 wonders down to the ones who really want the job and are willing to prove themselves. And they do move you to a flying job in good time. That concept may seem repulsive to some, but until you run your own airline and hire your own pilots, who are you to judge? It's supply and demand in this game, and will stay that way.
From my first day on the ramp for a 704 operator with 250 hours to sitting in the right seat of an Air Canada A320 took me less than 7 years. And I have no shame at all for "putting my back into it." 8)



I know a guy just like you. Started on the ground at a 704 while in flight school. Went full time ground for two years and 5? flying years later he left with 1500+Turbine MPIC and off to AC into the 320.



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