Type Rating and Rank

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mcapmare
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Type Rating and Rank

#1 Post by mcapmare » Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:45 pm

Is your rank locked for the type you are flying (for an airline)?

If you get rated on a new type and you are, say, a 2nd year Capt, do you start as a 1st year FO on the new type? Do you have to start as an FO on every new type you get rated to fly?

Can someone please explain how it all works or point me towards the appropriate reading?

Thanks!
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ahramin
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Re: Type Rating and Rank

#2 Post by ahramin » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:23 pm

Since this is in the general industry forum I'll answer it for legacy model airlines. If you want information about non seniority-is-everything airlines like Westjet you can look them up individually.

Seniority number is everything. When you get hired, you get a number at the bottom of the seniority list. Everyone hired before you is above you on the list. Everyone hired after you is below you on the list. That number controls your position (they don't use ranks in the airlines), your schedule, your vacations, your pay, your priority on standby flights, pretty much everything at work.

So for any position that becomes available, your current position and experience don't have any bearing. What matters is your seniority number. If you are the most senior person to want that position, you get it. Otherwise you don't. So if you are an Embraer F/O and a 777 Captain spot opens up and you are the most senior pilot who wants the position, it's yours.
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Heisenberg666
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Re: Type Rating and Rank

#3 Post by Heisenberg666 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:33 pm

Westjet isn't that different. We have seniority for equipment bids, just not for schedule or vacation bidding.
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mcapmare
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Re: Type Rating and Rank

#4 Post by mcapmare » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:49 pm

Maybe I didn't word my question properly or do not understand something. So I'm going to try giving you an example.

Suppose I start working for a major airline. Initially, I could only expect an F/O position and probably on one of the smaller types (they are also more common so odds are in that favor). Within a few years, maybe due to my seniority level and positions becoming available, I'm offered a Captain's position on the type I'm currently an F/O on and I take it. Now, suppose a while after, some crew retires and due to my seniority I'm offered a chance to get rated for a larger aircraft, maybe on long haul flights. I would finish all the training required and now I return to fly the type I'm now rated for. Would my position be that of a Captain (since I have already been a Captain prior to getting the new type rating) or would I have to start as an F/O again as this is a new type? And if I start as an F/O would this always happen or it varies with the situation?

I understand that seniority is what determines eligibility for the different positions and types, but there might be someone with more seniority that prefers to not move up to a larger type or have to do long haul flights. So maybe somewhere along the line when my seniority entitles me to it, I may choose to take on that new rating.
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ahramin
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Re: Type Rating and Rank

#5 Post by ahramin » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:16 pm

I think I understand what you don't understand. When a spot opens up on the larger aircraft in your example, the spot isn't for Aircraft B. The spot is either for Captain on Aircraft B or F/O on Aircraft B. Your current position as Captain on Aircraft S does not change your seniority number and therefore has no effect on your bidding for the position on Aircraft B.

So if you bid F/O on Aircraft B and have the seniority to get it, you will be F/O. If you bid Captain on Aircraft B and have the seniority to get it, you will be Captain. If you bid Captain on Aircraft B and do not have the seniority to get it, you stay Captain on Aircraft S. If you have the seniority to get Captain or F/O on Aircraft B and bid F/O on Aircraft B, you will be F/O, even if you have the seniority for Captain.
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PositiveRate27
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Re: Type Rating and Rank

#6 Post by PositiveRate27 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:45 pm

Ill put it in even simpler terms, using Jazz as an example. You could choose to spend 15 years in the right seat of the Dash 8, and then go straight to the left seat of the RJ if you had the seniority to hold that seat. You do not have to ever fly right seat on a new aircraft type, as long as you have the seniority to hold the left seat of the new type.
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mcapmare
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Re: Type Rating and Rank

#7 Post by mcapmare » Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:31 am

Alright, I got it now. Thanks a lot guys!
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lazyeight
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Re: Type Rating and Rank

#8 Post by lazyeight » Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:25 am

Same idea with AC. I know one pilot who got a 777RP position on initial ground school. He's just staying in that position until he can hold FO on the 777. Since RP is usually a lower seniority position, most if not all other RP's will be under him as time progresses and he can choose where and when he wants to go fly.

It's the same reason some 777/767 FO's might stay on the FO position for years after they can hold a Captain position. They will be able to bid what they want as an FO vs. a Cpt and if you're after lifestyle and ability to work when you want why go from a high seniority position as an FO to a lower seniority position as a Captain?
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digits_
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Re: Type Rating and Rank

#9 Post by digits_ » Sat Jun 18, 2016 11:10 am

lazyeight wrote: It's the same reason some 777/767 FO's might stay on the FO position for years after they can hold a Captain position. They will be able to bid what they want as an FO vs. a Cpt and if you're after lifestyle and ability to work when you want why go from a high seniority position as an FO to a lower seniority position as a Captain?
Huh ? Does your seniority reset/take a hit when you accept an upgrade :?:
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ahramin
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Re: Type Rating and Rank

#10 Post by ahramin » Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:13 pm

Generally the Captain position is paid more and therefore tends to be more senior. So when you move from F/O list to Captain list, you will be among more senior pilots and therefore lower on the list.

What really matters for quality of life is not your global seniority in the company but how your seniority compares to those on the same aircraft in the same position at the same base.

A friend of mine took an upgrade to Captain last year and when all was said and done, he's away from home at least twice as much for a 25% pay raise. Eventually it may work out for him but for now he's effectively cut his hourly rate down significantly.
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Re: Type Rating and Rank

#11 Post by lazyeight » Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:01 pm

digits_ wrote:
lazyeight wrote: It's the same reason some 777/767 FO's might stay on the FO position for years after they can hold a Captain position. They will be able to bid what they want as an FO vs. a Cpt and if you're after lifestyle and ability to work when you want why go from a high seniority position as an FO to a lower seniority position as a Captain?
Huh ? Does your seniority reset/take a hit when you accept an upgrade :?:
No. Think of it this way. Three pilots seniority 1, 2 and 3 all start at the same time. Pilot 1 goes 777RP and holds poor seniority as do 2 and 3 as an FO on the A320. 5 years pass and Pilot 1 is still an RP however he is at the top of the 777RP seniority for his position as everyone else has moved on to FO jobs on other aircraft or the 777. This allows him to choose and bid on whatever he wants. Pilots 2 and 3 both can now hold the 777 FO job and take it right away. Now they are new 777FO's and likely lower on the 777FO seniority list for that specific position. They take the flights they get until they start to move up the ladder. All while pilot 1 is still working as an RP, and still picking and choosing his days and rotations. He gets days off when he wants, flies to destinations he wants etc. 3 years pass and in this time both pilots 2 and 3 have moved up on the seniority list for the 777 FO position. They are starting to get more flights they want and days off when they want. Pilot 1 decides now is the time to make the switch to 777FO. Now he holds higher seniority right away than both pilots 2 and 3 in that position even though he just started as his overall number is higher.

The above scenario can be related to anything, FO to Cpt upgrades etc. Makes sense?
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Last edited by lazyeight on Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lazyeight
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Re: Type Rating and Rank

#12 Post by lazyeight » Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:02 pm

ahramin wrote: What really matters for quality of life is not your global seniority in the company but how your seniority compares to those on the same aircraft in the same position at the same base.
Exactly. Base matters too. Look at Jazz. Captain upgrades in Vancouver are over 10 years from what I've been told. Compare that to Toronto, 2 years. Vancouver is what you consider a "high seniority" base. Same reason you might get a Captain upgrade at AC faster if you are willing to move to Winnipeg vs. staying in Toronto or Vancouver and waiting until you can hold a Captain position at that base.
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digits_
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Re: Type Rating and Rank

#13 Post by digits_ » Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:53 pm

Does all that seniority stuff mean, that as a low seniority pilot at an airline you could have to change base every month / year ? Or are there mechanics in place to prevent that stuff ?
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Re: Type Rating and Rank

#14 Post by lazyeight » Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:08 pm

If there is a fleet reduction you could loose your base or be given options for a new plane at your base (might be a lower seniority bid) or a move to another base.
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ahramin
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Re: Type Rating and Rank

#15 Post by ahramin » Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:58 pm

Digits unless something happens to force the issue like getting rid of an aircraft type or layoffs you are protected in your position. If someone above you on the list decides they want a certain position, they have to wait until there is an opening on it (from expansion or retirements) and be the most senior (or 10 most senior if 10 positions open up) to get it. They cannot displace someone who already has that position despite a better seniority number.
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Re: Type Rating and Rank

#16 Post by digits_ » Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:59 pm

Thanks !
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Eric Janson
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Re: Type Rating and Rank

#17 Post by Eric Janson » Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:39 pm

mcapmare wrote:Is your rank locked for the type you are flying (for an airline)?

If you get rated on a new type and you are, say, a 2nd year Capt, do you start as a 1st year FO on the new type? Do you have to start as an FO on every new type you get rated to fly?
The answer is no.

The last aircraft I flew as F/O was the 737-300.

I've flown 757/767/A320/A330/A340 as Captain. No F/O time on any of them.
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Re: Type Rating and Rank

#18 Post by ogopogo » Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:44 pm

This sometimes means your first day on the job as Captain on your new aircraft, you find yourself paired with an F/O who has many many hours on type, and you have zilch.
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Re: Type Rating and Rank

#19 Post by Eric Janson » Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:28 am

ogopogo wrote:This sometimes means your first day on the job as Captain on your new aircraft, you find yourself paired with an F/O who has many many hours on type, and you have zilch.
That's not correct - you still need to complete Line Training. First flight on Type will be with an Instructor in the right seat.

Example A330 to A340 requires 4 Line Training sectors with an Instructor followed by a 2 sector Line Check.

A company will normally combine Line Training with route qualification. At my previous employer this was a checkout for European routes and at my present employer it was KJFK.
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Re: Type Rating and Rank

#20 Post by Rockie » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:09 am

ogopogo wrote:This sometimes means your first day on the job as Captain on your new aircraft, you find yourself paired with an F/O who has many many hours on type, and you have zilch.
Eric Janson wrote:That's not correct - you still need to complete Line Training. First flight on Type will be with an Instructor in the right seat.
Figuratively speaking as I'm sure he was, he is correct. Your first day on the job as a Captain on a new aircraft is the first day you are qualified and signing out the airplane. That means after the bare minimum of training with the type rating on your license still wet you could be paired (if you're lucky)with a First Officer with many years and thousands of hours of experience on that type. A wise Captain will recognize that and properly utilize the First Officer to continue his education on the airplane.
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Re: Type Rating and Rank

#21 Post by altiplano » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:59 pm

I seem to recall a period where 2 "zero" time on type pilots can't get paired together. I'm sure it varies airline to airline depending on their FOM, but for example one pilot needs 100 hours on type.
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Re: Type Rating and Rank

#22 Post by Rockie » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:21 pm

These are the regulations which apply:

705.106(4) "A pilot shall, on successful completion of a pilot proficiency check, meet the requirements of the consolidation period in accordance with the Commercial Air Service Standards."

705.108 "No air operator shall assign a pilot-in-command and a second-in-command to an aircraft unless their combined experience on that type of aircraft meets the Commercial Air Service Standards."



This is the consolidation standard:

725.106 (7) Consolidation Period (refers to subsection 705.106(4) of the Canadian Aviation Regulations)

"(a) The consolidation period shall take place in accordance with the time limits from the following sliding scale and shall begin upon successful completion of an initial Pilot Proficiency Check on each aeroplane type:
(amended 2000/06/01)

(i) 50 hours in 60 days;

(ii) 75 hours in 90 days; or

(iii) 100 hours in 120 days.

(b) If the consolidation period is not completed within 120 days, an extension to 150 days is permitted, at the air operator's discretion, under the following conditions:

(i) on or before the 120th day, the air operator shall make a ground evaluation of the pilot's level of proficiency;

(ii) when the pilot is assessed as not possessing a satisfactory level of competence, the pilot shall undergo additional training, followed by a supervised line operating flight, after which the consolidation period may be extended to 150 days; and

(iii) when the pilot's proficiency is judged satisfactory, the pilot shall be observed in a supervised line operating flight, after which the consolidation period may be extended to 150 days.

(c) If at any time before the consolidation period ends a pilot is assigned to another aeroplane type, the pilot shall undergo refresher training with a training pilot or check pilot before resuming the consolidation process.

(d) If the pilot fails to complete the consolidation requirements in the maximum time of 150 days allowed, the complete line indoctrination and consolidation period requirements must be repeated."





This is the crew pairing standard detailing who it applies to and when:

725.108 Crew Pairing

(1) Crew pairing restrictions establish minimum experience requirements for a flight crew.

(2) Crew pairing restrictions apply when any of the following situations apply to either the pilot-in-command or the second-in-command when at the employ of an air operator:
(amended 2002/06/01)

(a) initial appointment to pilot-in-command or second-in-command;
(amended 2002/06/01)

(b) the first upgrade from second-in-command to pilot-in-command on any aeroplane type except the same aeroplane type;
(amended 1998/09/01)

(c) the first transition from a reciprocating-powered aeroplane to a turbo-prop or turbo-jet powered aeroplane;
(amended 2002/06/01)

(d) the first transition from a turbo-prop-powered aeroplane to a turbo-jet-powered aeroplane;
(amended 2002/06/01)

(e) the first transition to an aeroplane whose control systems use a technology or present information in a manner that differs significantly in access, interpretation, or usage from that with which the pilot is familiar;
(amended 2002/06/01)

(f) upon completion of training on a second aeroplane type which is not covered by a common type rating, regardless of previous experience, when the pilot will be flying both types of aeroplanes in service; or
(amended 2002/06/01)

(g) the transition to an aeroplane type on which the crew member has no previous experience.
(amended 2002/06/01; no previous version)

(3) When crew pairing restrictions apply, they come into effect after completion of the Pilot Proficiency Check in the new position or new type, and remain in effect until the completion of the consolidation period for this flight crew member. (See subsection 725.106(7) for consolidation period)

(4) When, after completion of the line indoctrination, crew pairing restrictions apply to one of the flight crew members, the other flight crew member shall meet the following requirements:

(a) has completed the consolidation period; or

(b) for the purpose of a transition period from previous regulation to the new Canadian Aviation Regulations, has gained experience in position on the aeroplane type prior to the introduction of consolidation requirements.

(5) When, after completion of their individual line indoctrination, crew pairing restrictions apply to the pilot-in-command and to the second-in-command, a training pilot who meets the requirements of subsection 725.124(4) shall occupy the jump seat.

(6) Hours applying to crew pairing restrictions are valid for line indoctrination and the consolidation period referred to in Section 725.106.
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