New Flt Crew Regs

Discuss topics relating to airlines.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

User avatar
x-wind
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 737
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:23 pm
Location: Around

New Flt Crew Regs

Post by x-wind » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:57 pm

Garneau said new refs are coming in a phone interview.

http://www.pilotcareercenter.com/Aviati ... egulations


Looking forward to it, sure hope it doesn't equate to more days away though.
---------- ADS -----------
  

mato
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:15 pm
Location: Calgary

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by mato » Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:31 am

I'm all for some positive changes... But as a commuter does this just mean I will work more days in a month, with shorter duty to make up the same hours? All those high credit days will be gone! I think this will effect some crews who try to maximize the days off and that will be a bummer!
---------- ADS -----------
  

toelessjoe
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by toelessjoe » Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:57 am

mato wrote:I'm all for some positive changes... But as a commuter does this just mean I will work more days in a month, with shorter duty to make up the same hours? All those high credit days will be gone! I think this will effect some crews who try to maximize the days off and that will be a bummer!
Nailed it. This will actually affect our lives in a negative fashion IMHO.

Tieless.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Thorjones
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:45 am

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by Thorjones » Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:07 am

on the upside though it may spur some even more hiring for pilots? But this could increase company costs and create a need for even lower wages :?
---------- ADS -----------
  

goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1772
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:10 am

I've got nothing against 14 hour days, as long as there isn't a bunch in a row. I want to see the system where there's a limit on duty hours within the past 7 days, 30 days, etc.

How about something like this:
80 duty hours in 7 days
300 duty hours in 30 days
1500 duty hours in 180 days
2500 duty hours in 365 days

Allows the float/helicopter guys to work hard all summer and have the winter off. Then keeps the pace sustainable for non seasonal flying.
It also fixes the days off problem. Either crews are limited to ~8hr duty days with a dumb rotation, or they can have a good rotation with ~12 hour duty days. Effectively gets rid of the on call 14 days on, 3 off by making the duty days uselessly short.

I also liked the last proposal where starting time affected max duty time. A 14 hour day started at 4pm really sucks, but a 14 hour day started at 7am is okay.
---------- ADS -----------
  

mato
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:15 pm
Location: Calgary

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by mato » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:21 am

Thorjones wrote:on the upside though it may spur some even more hiring for pilots? But this could increase company costs and create a need for even lower wages :?
I don't know if it would actually equate to more pilots on the roster. Anywhere you have pilots that get 10 or 12 GDO/month where they get blocked with an actual 14-16 days off are just going to have the longer 14 hour days split into those remaining 4 extra days off that were scheduled. The flying itself has not increased we are just spreading things out.

So unless you are getting worked like crazy with only 10 days off a month at your company. Maybe The "NewLeaf" type operations will need to rethink how many crews are required but everywhere else should be able to just re-arrange the resources they already have. On the bright side it will probably equate to extra perdiems! lol
---------- ADS -----------
  

timel
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1209
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:50 am

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by timel » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:04 am

What is the process the government has to follow in order to make those new rules effective?

Will it come out again as a notice of proposed amendment? If yes, what is the next step after that?
---------- ADS -----------
  

bobcaygeon
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 552
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:03 am

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by bobcaygeon » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:55 pm

This is going to add more days worked for flight crew sitting in exotic locals like Grand Prairie and Kapuskasing instead of at home because of the low "credit" type days and will be expensive for the operator's because they'll need more bodies to cover the 0600-2300 time window that most pax flights operate domestically.

It will all eventually get passed on to the customer and the playing field will be fair at the upper levels but at the lower levels TC still can't apply the existing regs consistently within
a region and they've been around since 1996.

TC also has no money to actually enact any of these changes so their front line people will get to manage the changes with no resources either.
---------- ADS -----------
  

fish4life
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1729
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by fish4life » Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:58 pm

Honestly it's going to suck, some of the rules are good but having to work 20+ days a month is going to be more fatiguing than the current system.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Marinth
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 107
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:16 pm

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by Marinth » Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:50 pm

timel wrote:What is the process the government has to follow in order to make those new rules effective?

Will it come out again as a notice of proposed amendment? If yes, what is the next step after that?
Just got an email from the CARAC. Next step is in the spring of 2017 when the Gazette Part 1 is supposed to be published for the new rules, followed by a public comment period. Once it moves on to the Gazette part 2 705 carriers will have 1 year before implementation, and 703/704 carriers will have 2 years.

So don't worry boys, we've got a good 3 years of those sweet sweet 14 hour duty days, with 8 hour, 45 minute rest periods left in us! Cue next election cycle, and TC backing off to see what the next government wants.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Mach1
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 489
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:04 am

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by Mach1 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:52 pm

80 (Flight hours) ÷ 15 (days/month) = 5.33 Hours a day.

I'm pretty sure a company can find a way to fly you 5.33 hours a day on average.
---------- ADS -----------
  
I'm going to knock this up a notch with my spice weasle. Bam!

timel
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1209
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:50 am

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by timel » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:49 pm

Thank you Marinth!

Let's say the publication of the new regulations can be done in gazette II for fall 2017, we could expect the new rules to be effective in fall 2018 for 705.
As for 703 and 704 it woud go to fall 2019, so yeah... right in the midst of the federal elections :smt040 so it could be more.
---------- ADS -----------
  

florch
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 9:22 pm

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by florch » Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:22 am

Thorjones wrote:on the upside though it may spur some even more hiring for pilots? But this could increase company costs and create a need for even lower wages :?
Supply demand. They should end up actually paying more per pilot. But they'll sell you your line.
---------- ADS -----------
  

florch
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 9:22 pm

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by florch » Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:36 am

mato wrote:
Thorjones wrote:on the upside though it may spur some even more hiring for pilots? But this could increase company costs and create a need for even lower wages :?
I don't know if it would actually equate to more pilots on the roster. Anywhere you have pilots that get 10 or 12 GDO/month where they get blocked with an actual 14-16 days off are just going to have the longer 14 hour days split into those remaining 4 extra days off that were scheduled. The flying itself has not increased we are just spreading things out.

So unless you are getting worked like crazy with only 10 days off a month at your company. Maybe The "NewLeaf" type operations will need to rethink how many crews are required but everywhere else should be able to just re-arrange the resources they already have. On the bright side it will probably equate to extra perdiems! lol
For companies that do long turns they may need to rest instead of returning. That means double the days for these destinations as another crew has to be in position to take the return, and the inbound crew has to wait to take over the next inbound. Who wants to get rich at $3 to 5/hr on per diem?
---------- ADS -----------
  

TheStig
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 661
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:34 pm

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by TheStig » Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:25 am

Lot's of examples on this thread of why I'm glad pilots aren't self regulating. TC is looking out for the public's interests, not what pilots think will make their schedules include the most days off. Based on my companies pairings I can think of very few duty days that will need to be changed, and working a 8-9 day month of transcontinental turns would still be possible. Changes to augmentation on longer flights should increase pilot requirements substantially.
---------- ADS -----------
  

timel
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1209
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:50 am

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by timel » Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:58 am

I spoke to a 703 chief pilot recently, he told me they had to phone jazz and other regional operators and asked them to slow down the hiring of their pilots, he even told me they would have to close the doors if the hiring keeps on going as it is now. So what is it going to be in 2018?

If there is a possible low supply of pilots with experience coming up, it will be interesting to see how the industry is going to cope with it.
Anyone knows other operators who are in the same situation?
Is there any organization/union monitoring the issue?
---------- ADS -----------
  

garfield
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:35 pm

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by garfield » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:16 pm

timel wrote:I spoke to a 703 chief pilot recently, he told me they had to phone jazz and other regional operators and asked them to slow down the hiring of their pilots, he even told me they would have to close the doors if the hiring keeps on going as it is now. So what is it going to be in 2018?

If there is a possible low supply of pilots with experience coming up, it will be interesting to see how the industry is going to cope with it.
Anyone knows other operators who are in the same situation?
Is there any organization/union monitoring the issue?
Very well. Maybe if they offer 100K per year and 12 days off they will retain more people...
---------- ADS -----------
  

Franky Jr
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:14 pm

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by Franky Jr » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:25 pm

But this could increase company costs and create a need for even lower wages
You should be deported on behalf of all Canadian pilots.
---------- ADS -----------
  

scopiton
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 809
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:06 am

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by scopiton » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:33 pm

timel wrote:, he even told me they would have to close the doors if the hiring keeps on going as it is now. So what is it going to be in 2018?
who, in their right mind, would see that as a problem ? good riddance.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Fanblade
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 869
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by Fanblade » Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:30 pm

timel wrote:
If there is a possible low supply of pilots with experience coming up, it will be interesting to see how the industry is going to cope with it.
Anyone knows other operators who are in the same situation?
Is there any organization/union monitoring the issue?
The best way to deal with a pilot shortage is to fly less frequency in larger aircraft. Just look south of the boarder. 50 seaters upguaged to 75. Majors repatriating 175/crj into 737's and reducing frequency.

From a pilot perspective it's a good thing. More good paying jobs. Less crappy paying.
---------- ADS -----------
  

lazyeight
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 10:41 am

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by lazyeight » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:02 pm

timel wrote:I spoke to a 703 chief pilot recently, he told me they had to phone jazz and other regional operators and asked them to slow down the hiring of their pilots, he even told me they would have to close the doors if the hiring keeps on going as it is now. So what is it going to be in 2018?
If I found out my CP did that while I was trying to get a job with them I would be out the door faster than you can say "see you in 9 hours."
---------- ADS -----------
  

goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1772
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:26 am

Would Jazz HR actually care what some 703 company thinks?
---------- ADS -----------
  

mel gibson
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:21 pm

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by mel gibson » Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:07 am

A Chief Pilot did that to me. Told the airline not to hire all his pilots. Delayed my course a month.
A couple of years later, those lost seniority numbers cost me a two year layoff, 7 numbers actually from not getting furloughed, and cost me thousands of dollars. It took me years to recover from that financially.
So, Chief Pilots that do that, can go F#%^ themselves.
---------- ADS -----------
  

timel
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1209
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:50 am

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by timel » Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:36 am

goingnowherefast wrote:Would Jazz HR actually care what some 703 company thinks?
I don't know how much they care, but if they have a pool of pilots and someone gives them a call asking to slow down some hirings, I guess it may have some impact, for sure if you are waiting for a job in some seniority based airline, it could make the difference big time, like Mel said it definitely s&*ks.
The best way to deal with a pilot shortage is to fly less frequency in larger aircraft. Just look south of the boarder. 50 seaters upguaged to 75. Majors repatriating 175/crj into 737's and reducing frequency.

From a pilot perspective it's a good thing. More good paying jobs. Less crappy paying.
Or they will hire cadets and what is left of pilots in 703-704.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
BuckNasty
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 12:46 am

Re: New Flt Crew Regs

Post by BuckNasty » Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:44 pm

someone gives them a call asking to slow down some hirings, I guess it may have some impact, for sure if you are waiting for a job in some seniority based airline, it could make the difference big time
isn't separate businesses colluding against potential employees illegal? That sounds greasy AF.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “General Airline Industry Comments”