Pilots and Alcohol

[TheStig]

Nark,

While this is a discussion forum, it was actually being explained how the process for these matters works in the U.K., not debated.

Since the topic is 'Pilots and Alcohol', I'd like to add my two cents to the conversation. I believe that flight has reinforced the stereotype that pilots are heavy drinkers to the public. While I don't debate there are, from my experience, even those who indulge more than I'd recommend take their responsibly to be fit for duty responsibly.

I'd hope that crew members who become aware they may have substance issues feel comfortable taking their concerns forward for help before they end up in the headlines. Large carriers have excellent peer support organizations and management (should) be thrilled to offer assistance to help find and sponsor treatment before their organization suffers damage to its reputation.

It would be nice to see the same outcry from the public over pilot fatigue issues. The level of equivalent inebriation caused by lack of sleep on pilots flying overseas puts the flying public in much greater jeopardy every single day. I read several reader comments below news articles calling for mandatory breathalyzer testing for pilots prior to flying. I'm more concerned that Canadian carriers are the only ones on the planet who fly over the Atlantic with just 2 pilots and across the pacific with 3.

[pelmet]

Whatever happened to the two Canadian North Dash-8 pilots arrested a while back on Baffin Island.

[digits_]

But anyways, my idea is.....How about we just drink orange juice, or lemonade, or water instead of spending the money on booze. Drinking large amounts of booze has to be one of the stupidest things people do. Exactly what is the point. Can you not have fun drinking something non-alcoholic for the evening or one or two drinks slowly if you do particularly like the taste. Is it because you think you are cool by pouring large amounts of beer. Is it really that funny that someone was feeling sick. Think about it for a minute. This stuff is unhealthy and makes you feel weird and maybe sick, kills thousands per year in road accidents and long term illnesses and you are spending your money to do it.

I guess I am a square but personally, I think it is a really stupid part of out culture. In fact, I have a theory. My theory is that in reality(with very occasional exception), virtually everyone actually doesn't particularly like drinking. But they are under the impression that most people do like it. So, in order to be part of the group, they all pretend to like it and you have all these people drinking, pretending to be enjoying it when in fact, no one is. But no one will be the first to admit it. So, I am standing up as the first one to state that I would rather not have any booze because I don't particularly like the overall effects. Who wants to have a lemonade party(Mike's Hard version not allowed). Orange juice, water, and grape kneehighs are welcome too.

This.


And don't forget, even if you don't like the taste of beer/wine/vodka/..., you have to try it untill you like it

Why? Nobody knows.

[Nark]

Not that I'm condoning what is alleged to have happened, and perhaps I'm not au fait with airline procedures, but a few thoughts, and queries...
Do airlines have a written procedure/policy in place if an impairment is suspected in a crew member?
I work in a small outfit, and I'd like to think that if I, or any of my coworkers, showed up 'unfit' one morning, the first approach would be along the lines of "I'm smelling alcohol/you're acting drunk [etc..] are you sure you want to show up, and not book off sick today?" - followed by a 'don't let this happen again' chat.. But that goes back to #1 above - a written policy that might leave crew members no choice but to drop a dime.

North,

Most if not all will have a policy written down. The two airlines I have worked for had a 0.02 limit, which exceed the FAA limit of 0.04. This gives HR grounds for dismissal of employee.
The US DOT has a program which tracks certain occupations (anything flight related is included). If you pop positive or refuse a sample, it's ground for termination or employment denial.

Also, we have procedures in place that if someone accuses us of being intoxicated, we must to X,Y and Zee(not zed

[North Shore]

The US DOT has a program which tracks certain occupations (anything flight related is included). If you pop positive or refuse a sample, it's ground for termination or employment denial.

Also, we have procedures in place that if someone accuses us of being intoxicated, we must to X,Y and Zee(not zed

'Pop positive' - as in get stopped driving, and blow over, or show up to work, and get a spot-check?

AvCanada = Zed!

[complexintentions]

But anyways, my idea is.....How about we just drink orange juice, or lemonade, or water instead of spending the money on booze. Drinking large amounts of booze has to be one of the stupidest things people do. Exactly what is the point. Can you not have fun drinking something non-alcoholic for the evening or one or two drinks slowly if you do particularly like the taste. Is it because you think you are cool by pouring large amounts of beer. Is it really that funny that someone was feeling sick. Think about it for a minute. This stuff is unhealthy and makes you feel weird and maybe sick, kills thousands per year in road accidents and long term illnesses and you are spending your money to do it.

I guess I am a square but personally, I think it is a really stupid part of out culture. In fact, I have a theory. My theory is that in reality(with very occasional exception), virtually everyone actually doesn't particularly like drinking.

My idea is, how about we just drink orange juice if that's what we like, and drink orange juice with vodka if that's what we like, and not try to tell other people what they should do? Even if a choice is self-destructive, the freedom to make that choice is still an important one. Incidentally, I do very much like drinking and don't do it to be "cool", THAT ship sailed eons ago. lol

The use of substances to alter the mind's state is as old as mankind itself. The reasons for doing so are as varied as people themselves. This will not change, no matter what one's opinion of this is. Of course doing so isn't compatible with operating complex machinery at the same time. But the conversation seems to have veered somewhat from that topic, to one of attempting to replace alcohol with lemonade. Uh, no. Prohibition was attempted and failed.

It would be nice to see the same outcry from the public over pilot fatigue issues. The level of equivalent inebriation caused by lack of sleep on pilots flying overseas puts the flying public in much greater jeopardy every single day. I read several reader comments below news articles calling for mandatory breathalyzer testing for pilots prior to flying. I'm more concerned that Canadian carriers are the only ones on the planet who fly over the Atlantic with just 2 pilots and across the pacific with 3.

EXACTLY. Fatigue is such a monumentally, exponentially larger threat to flight safety than substance-abusing pilots that it almost renders the latter irrelevant. But since fatigue is so completely engrained and substance abuse is higher-profile and comparatively rare, guess which one we take aim at? As usual everyone goes after the "easy" target, not the correct one.

However, it is not correct that Canadian carriers are the only ones with such lax duty regs, plenty of Asian carriers are operating trans-Pacific with three pilots, for example. And Middle Eastern carriers operating to the Eastern seaboard with three pilots as well. Unfortunately, it has become the norm to push right to the very limit of endurance.

[pelmet]

But anyways, my idea is.....How about we just drink orange juice, or lemonade, or water instead of spending the money on booze. Drinking large amounts of booze has to be one of the stupidest things people do. Exactly what is the point. Can you not have fun drinking something non-alcoholic for the evening or one or two drinks slowly if you do particularly like the taste. Is it because you think you are cool by pouring large amounts of beer. Is it really that funny that someone was feeling sick. Think about it for a minute. This stuff is unhealthy and makes you feel weird and maybe sick, kills thousands per year in road accidents and long term illnesses and you are spending your money to do it.

I guess I am a square but personally, I think it is a really stupid part of out culture. In fact, I have a theory. My theory is that in reality(with very occasional exception), virtually everyone actually doesn't particularly like drinking.

My idea is, how about we just drink orange juice if that's what we like, and drink orange juice with vodka if that's what we like, and not try to tell other people what they should do? Even if a choice is self-destructive, the freedom to make that choice is still an important one. Incidentally, I do very much like drinking and don't do it to be "cool", THAT ship sailed eons ago. lol

BEEEEER

[valleyboy]

One must realize the legal system in Scotland is different than here. It has a lot of Roman Law as opposed to Civil Law so while the crime is still there how it is processed and the procedures might be what we are not familiar with. Guilty until proven innocent still hangs around.

Does this incident mean random testing will be rearing it's head in Canadeer. While one could expect it could happen south of 49 it was never considered here. Maybe it's time. We accepted seat belts and helmets after much grumbling. Is random testing any worse.

[CD]

Quite a bit of discussion on that idea before:

AvCanada: Random Drug and Alcohol Testing

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I am glad they got caught before they killed people. Such behaviour does not merit the privilege of holding any pilot license, nevermind an ATPL. Talk about decision making...

I just want to record this very biased and ignorant comment, coming from a guy who claims to be an active fighter pilot and Officer of the Royal Canadian Air Force, before he deletes it.

Gilles Hudicourt

[AuxBatOn]

I just want to record this very biased and ignorant comment

So, 2 guys get thrown into jail for suspicion of drinking and flying. Knowing the law in Scotland, these charges are based on probably solid evidence. How is this biased and ignorant? If I am biaised towards anything, it's towards not drinking and flying.

coming from a guy who claims to be a active fighter pilot and Officer of the Royal Canadian Air Force, before he deletes it.

I won't delete it, I believe in my comment. Drinking and flying is not okay. And I don't see how my career path has anything to do about this subject, with the point of view I have. I am against drinking and flying.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I just want to record this very biased and ignorant comment

So, 2 guys get thrown into jail for suspicion of drinking and flying. Knowing the law in Scotland, these charges are based on probably solid evidence. How is this biased and ignorant? If I am biaised towards anything, it's towards not drinking and flying.

coming from a guy who claims to be a active fighter pilot and Officer of the Royal Canadian Air Force, before he deletes it.

I won't delete it, I believe in my comment. Drinking and flying is not okay. And I don't see how my career path has anything to do about this subject, with the point of view I have. I am against drinking and flying.

Would you have commented in such a manner on Col Russel Williams' sex attacks on this forum before he went to court, one day after his arrest ?

[AuxBatOn]

Would you have commented in such a manner on Col Russel Williams' sex attacks on this forum before he went to court, one day after his arrest ?

Yes I would have.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Would you have commented in such a manner on Col Russel Williams' sex attacks on this forum before he went to court, one day after his arrest ?

Yes I would have.

Really !? Well here is the Col Williams thread and your comments.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=62205&hilit=Russel ... ms#p588990

I take note that you are much more passionate, opinionated and expressive about pilots who drink the day before flying than about those who rape and murder women.

[AuxBatOn]

Would you have commented in such a manner on Col Russel Williams' sex attacks on this forum before he went to court, one day after his arrest ?

Yes I would have.

Really !? Well here is the Col Williams thread and your comments.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=62205&hilit=Russel ... ms#p588990

I take note that you are much more passionate, opinionated and expressive about pilots who drink the day before flying than about those who rape and murder women.

Raping and murdering is not a common occurence in the Canadian Armed Forces and this is not a CAF forum. Drinking is fairly common amongst pilots is common and some even fly still under the influence. And this is an aviation forum and this is most definitely a subject that needs to be talked about. I voiced my concerns on Mr Williams on another forum.

Keep cherry picking though...

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Drinking is fairly common amongst pilots is common and some even fly still under the influence. And this is an aviation forum and this is most definitely a subject that needs to be talked about. I voiced my concerns on Mr Williams on another forum.

Keep cherry picking though...

Is drinking fairly common amoungst RCAF pilots and do some RCAF pilots even fly under the influence ?

[AuxBatOn]

Drinking is fairly common amongst pilots is common and some even fly still under the influence. And this is an aviation forum and this is most definitely a subject that needs to be talked about. I voiced my concerns on Mr Williams on another forum.

Keep cherry picking though...

Is drinking fairly common amoungst RCAF pilots and do some RCAF pilots even fly under the influence ?

I said amongst pilots (in the general sense). Not biting to your bait.

[Eric Janson]

@AuxBatOn

It's a waste of time trying to have a debate with Gilles.

[pelmet]

.

[pelmet]

I think both Gilles and Aux have a point.

We do see a lot of people in some places these days marching and making demands for conviction without all or any of the evidence. While a breathalyzer is alitlle more cut and dry, I am willing to wait for the evidence.

So how about the statement......"I am glad they got caught before they killed people. Such behaviour does not merit the privilege of holding any pilot license, nevermind an ATPL. Talk about decision making..." is changed to mean those who have been convicted with appeals finished, at which point will include these two persons if that is their fate.

Discussions of umrelated murders or previous associates who may have been drinking inappropriately are irrelevant.