FLVC: A new change to the Aviation Standards

Discuss topics relating to airlines.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

Gilles Hudicourt
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2227
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:51 am
Location: YUL

FLVC: A new change to the Aviation Standards

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

In the past, Foreign Licence Validation Certificates, a certificate issued by Transport Canada to a pilot with a foreign licence allowing him/her to temporarily operate a Canadian registered aircraft, could only be issued for specific and limited reasons:

For short term recreational reason, to ferry or position an aircraft, to provide or receive type training, to operate a Canadian aircraft for a foreign operator, or to operate a Canadian aircraft wholly outside of Canada. and also, for specific commercial purposes like fighting forest fires, evacuation, etc in case of national emergencies such as fires, floods etc.

Then in 1998, TC added CASS 421.07(2)(j)
for reasons other than those mentioned above where approval may be given if, in the opinion of the Minister, it is in the public interest and not likely to affect aviation safety.
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)
Except that the French version read like this :
j) lorsqu'une demande a la prétention de servir l'intérêt public canadien pour des raisons non pas visées par les circonstances pressantes énumérées ci-dessus, le ministre peut accorder une approbation dans les cas exceptionnels.
(modifié 1998/03/23; pas de version précédente)
The French version of this clause specified that 421.07(2)(j) could only be used in exceptional circumstances, and when authorized by the Minister. It so happens that the original draft of the English version also read that this clause could only be used in exceptional circumstances, and only when authorized by the Minister but for a reason that is not explained in the CARAC archives, of which I have a copy, the part that restricted the use of this clause only in exceptional circumstances was deleted from the published English language version but remained in the French version.

Then Transport Canada, using this clause, began to allow foreign licenced pilots, to fly commercially in Canadaat the controls of large transport category jets operated under 705. Many FLVC were issued to foreign licenced pilots to fly for Skyservice airlines, Sunwing Airlines and Canjet.

Some winters, there were over 200 foreign licensed pilots flying large Canadian commercial jet inside of Canada using FLVCs issued under 421.07(2)(j), in clear violation of the French version of the CASS.

In fact, according to statistic obtained from Transport Canada, during certain calendar years, the vast majority of FLVCs issued by TC were issued under 421.07(2)(j).

Lawyers that were consulted all agreed that when an English and French version of a law or Regulation did not match, the most restrictive of the two applied. So the French version of 421.07(2)(j) should have applied since 1998. Yet it was simply ignored.

When Transport Canada was advised of this, they continued to ignore it until last month, when TC unilaterally adjusted the French version of the CASS to the English version, without any public consultations or a second thought.

Here is the new version:

https://www.tc.gc.ca/fra/aviationcivile ... 1-1086.htm
j) lorsqu’une demande a la prétention de servir l’intérêt public et que la sécurité aérienne ne risque pas d'être compromise pour des raisons autres que celles énumérées ci-dessus, le ministre peut accorder une approbation.
(en vigeur 2016/07/31)
.

Transport Canada sees no contradiction in having on one hand a very restrictive rule that states:

421.07(2)(g)
for operation of Canadian aircraft on Canadian commercial air services in urgent circumstances; such as fire suppression operations, emergency agricultural and forestry aerial application, airlift in relief of domestic natural disasters, and search and rescue operations;


followed right after by clause j) which states that TC can issue FLVCs for any other reason.

With a clause j) with no restrictions, why does a clause g) even exist ?

Canada is now the only industrialized nation in the world that allows Foreign Licenced pilots to Operate local commercial aircraft.

Something to be proud of. Bravo!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:13 pm, edited 5 times in total.
timel
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1209
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:50 am

Re: FLVC: A new change to the Aviation Standards

Post by timel »

j) lorsqu’une demande a la prétention de servir l’intérêt public et que la sécurité aérienne ne risque pas d'être compromise pour des raisons autres que celles énumérées ci-dessus, le ministre peut accorder une approbation.
(en vigeur 2016/07/31)
Woaw!!! That is quite a change in the text! It doesn't mean the same thing at all anymore.
Can they just do that?

I agree that they should remove the g article and keep this one instead. The door is now wide open.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Dick
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 90
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:10 pm
Location: A position or point in physical space. That's where I am!

Re: FLVC: A new change to the Aviation Standards

Post by Dick »

Here we go...
---------- ADS -----------
 
razorblade
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 252
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:31 am
Location: YYZ

Re: FLVC: A new change to the Aviation Standards

Post by razorblade »

Dick wrote:Here we go...
At least Gilles is trying to help improve our industry. What did you do?
---------- ADS -----------
 
URC
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 211
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:56 pm

Re: FLVC: A new change to the Aviation Standards

Post by URC »

What is ALPA doing about this ?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Mr. North
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 807
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:27 am

Re: FLVC: A new change to the Aviation Standards

Post by Mr. North »

Sigh... When will Canada stand up for CANADIANS?!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Sasquash
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 306
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:18 am
Location: Manitoba

Re: FLVC: A new change to the Aviation Standards

Post by Sasquash »

Sigh... When will Canada stand up for CANADIANS?!
Very well said!!!
---------- ADS -----------
 
AuxBatOn
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3283
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: FLVC: A new change to the Aviation Standards

Post by AuxBatOn »

Funny, I haven't seen anyone complaining about this...

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 3&p=975489
---------- ADS -----------
 
Going for the deck at corner
MKIII
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 11:14 am

Re: FLVC: A new change to the Aviation Standards

Post by MKIII »

[quote="AuxBatOn"]Funny, I haven't seen anyone complaining about this...

Maybe they are really short on pilots to fill these positions in Australia right now? This is definitely not the case in Canada at the moment.

There is quite a few Aussies and Kiwis flying in Canada as we speak. Being a member of Comomwealth helps a lot regarding visas and work permits. If it's a two way deal, I don't see any problem. With most of European countrys, it always seems to be a one way deal: they can come here and fly canadian registered airplane with their licence, but when we go there, it has to be on a C-reg airplane only.
---------- ADS -----------
 
timel
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1209
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:50 am

Re: FLVC: A new change to the Aviation Standards

Post by timel »

AuxBatOn wrote:Funny, I haven't seen anyone complaining about this...

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 3&p=975489
If a Canadian pilot goes to Australia, he could get a certificate of validation valid for one year, after he would have to undergo the usual exam and license conversion process if he wants to keep on flying in Australia, they can make an exemption for special cases such as urgent firefighting. Otherwise, it is pretty clear, it is a one time deal. In Europe it is a one time deal as well, after that you have to go for the European license and their 12 exams.

In Canada there are no real legislations for foreign commercial aircrew license validation and with Transport Canada's latest change it just got less transparent.
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: FLVC: A new change to the Aviation Standards

Post by photofly »

MKIII wrote: Being a member of Comomwealth helps a lot regarding visas and work permits. .
I can tell you with certainty that being a citizen of a Commonwealth country doesn't help one get a Canadian visa or work permit at all. Not since a long time ago.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Gilles Hudicourt
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2227
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:51 am
Location: YUL

Re: FLVC: A new change to the Aviation Standards

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

AuxBatOn wrote:Funny, I haven't seen anyone complaining about this...
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 3&p=975489

To back what Timel wrote, in the EU, in Australia and in New Zealand, a foreign licensed newcomer is given a grace period of one year, non renewable, to obtain a local licence. The US does not. To fly commercially in the US under 141, you need a FAA licence.

Canada on the other hand, will give a foreign licensed pilot an FLVC valid for one year, year after year, for an unlimited number of time, resulting in foreign pilots being in continuous possession of an FLVC several years in a row.
---------- ADS -----------
 
AuxBatOn
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3283
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: FLVC: A new change to the Aviation Standards

Post by AuxBatOn »

So, writing a couple exams will ensure we get quality pilots flying our planes?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Going for the deck at corner
timel
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1209
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:50 am

Re: FLVC: A new change to the Aviation Standards

Post by timel »

AuxBatOn wrote:So, writing a couple exams will ensure we get quality pilots flying our planes?
How do you evaluate pilots in the army? You make them do pushups?

In Africa, if you have a bit of power and money, you can seat your kids on the right seat of a commercial cockpit even if they have 0 hours in their logbooks.

In addition to evaluate the candidate knowledge, exams are a way to get familiar with the country regulations and operations. I don't think it takes 12 exams to come to that, but there should definitely be some theoretical and flight evaluation done directly by TC. Every countries does it. I think Canada has been supplying its own pilots for decades and never saw the need to amend laws, but some smart ass lobbies - lawyers mysteriously found ways to bypass the vetting system, maybe it is time TC does some clean up.

IMO, except for aerial work, the army top secret business and the new aircraft importations, I don't see why we need FLVCs in Canada.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Kosiw
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 716
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:12 pm

Re: FLVC: A new change to the Aviation Standards

Post by Kosiw »

What a traitor, that space cadet running TC has stabbed all CDN professional pilots in the back.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Gravity always wins
Inverted2
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3704
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:46 am
Location: Turdistan

Re: FLVC: A new change to the Aviation Standards

Post by Inverted2 »

If any of you voted liberal you have no right to complain.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Let’s Go Brandon
yycflyguy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2766
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:18 am

Re: FLVC: A new change to the Aviation Standards

Post by yycflyguy »

Inverted2 wrote:If any of you voted liberal you have no right to complain.
Oh please. Like the Conservatives were aviation advocates for FTD, fatigue, collective bargaining or TFW issues.
---------- ADS -----------
 
rxl
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 691
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:17 am
Location: Terminal 4

Re: FLVC: A new change to the Aviation Standards

Post by rxl »

Inverted2 wrote:If any of you voted liberal you have no right to complain.
This comment is complete and utter nonsense.
Abuse of FLVC's has been going on much longer than the current government's mandate.
In any event, in a democracy, please show me where it says that a citizen has no right to be in opposition to something being done by their government based on how they cast their vote??
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rowdy
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5166
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: On Borrowed Wings

Re: FLVC: A new change to the Aviation Standards

Post by Rowdy »

Ok so how do we as an aviation community showcase to the politicians and mindless beaurocrats that they will be ousted for not supporting our industry and profession? We have the votes! We determine the issues. Not them.
---------- ADS -----------
 
rudder
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3859
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: FLVC: A new change to the Aviation Standards

Post by rudder »

This just goes to show that despite over 5500 unionized commercial pilots and 2 professional pilot unions in Canada that we are still largely ineffective when it comes to affecting the the Government's legislative and regulatory framework for airline pilots.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Airline Industry Comments”