Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#76 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:44 am

AuxBatOn wrote:You are using this incident to further your cause so you implicitly advance that this incident, therefore travel safety, is compromised by TFW and the FLVC process, so I repeat my question: in this case, would a full up licence conversion prevented this issue? If no, then you have no buisness bashing TFW in this thread.
Let me quote the Canada Gazette to reply to you:

401.07 Foreign Licence Validation certificate

"While the issuance of the foreign licence validation certificate accepts the standards of training and operations within the original licensing country, these restrictions upon the duration and purposes of such a certificate minimize the potential exposure of Canadian operators and the Canadian licensing system to possibly less stringent standards."

"This prohibition (that the pilot be a resident of Canada) supports the limited duration and use to which such a certificate can be put. This measure ensures the protection of the Canadian aviation system from the effect of possibly less rigorous standards applied in pilot licensing elsewhere, which would dilute the worth of a Canadian document if foreign licenses were validated in Canada without limit or restriction."
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#77 Post by AuxBatOn » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:56 am

Key word: potential.
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#78 Post by justwork » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:28 am

AuxBatOn wrote:Key word: potential.
Like in this case a potential drunk potentially flying Canadian aircraft with Canadian passengers.
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#79 Post by altiplano » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:10 pm

a380super wrote:"" Fucking Europeans - first I can't go take a piss on my own, now we'll be getting random breathalysed at work. What a fucking joke."

Woow..what a level of arrogance Altiplano...Time to step down from your pedestal !
Don't get me wrong, I love Europe and Europeans... It's a great place and many great cultures, from which my ancestors are a part. I go there every chance I get.

Maybe I should have said Fucking Most Recent European Pilots... that's more accurate.

It is true - their state of industry, zero hour cadet, buy a type rating, pay to fly an airliner with nothing industry has brought us problems. Including these 2.

2 years of being locked in - that guy would have never made it through his first job here instructing/up north/on the ramp here... let alone fit in the flight deck of an airliner.

Now this guy, who shouldn't have been here in the first place, and the BS we'll deal with as a result of his actions... Fact is it wasn't a Canadian or Permanent Resident who earned that seat passed out at the wheel... It was a European who bought his 737 type rating and thus holds inadequate value for his position and the responsibility placed on him.

Pedestal? If you want to call it that fine - because most of what's going on over there is certainly beneath me...
Rockie wrote:That ends in May. In lieu of that we are now asked if we're "feeling ok" once a year at our medical.
Yeah I read that to, but I'll believe it when I am going back without calling the babysitter... Optimistic, sure... But it's not yet a certainty... particularly with the recent event eroding our position.
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#80 Post by Spaceshuttle » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:30 pm

So I guess our report times will be 4 hours before wheels up to accommodate CASA feel ups and now breathalyzers... who is going to pay us for this publicity stunt time wasting?? Transport?? Are they going to recognize this as part of a duty day? Along with our 17 hour extended days that the free world says are not safe?

Joke really... but I guess truck drivers, bus drivers and others who work in the transportation industry will be doing the same now...
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#81 Post by altiplano » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:48 pm

I hope Police Officers, Judges, Politicians will also submit to the same scrutiny.
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#82 Post by Rockie » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:19 pm

Why does it bother you so much Altiplano? Specifically.
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#83 Post by altiplano » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:19 pm

Rockie, your question isn't specific, but I'll assume you mean:

"Why does not being allowed to leave the flight deck independently to go to the bathroom or stretch on a long flight or the prospect of being screened randomly at work for alcohol and drugs bother me?"

It bothers me because it's a degradation of our profession that serves little to no real benefit and diverts resources from the real issues we face regarding safety in this business... kinda like getting ridden by some catsa muppet because you didn't take off your raic and put it in the tray, or because they are misinformed about LAG exemptions.

if on the other hand you mean:

"Why does the situation for initial pilots in Europe, paying to fly airliners, buying jobs and type ratings bother me?"

It bothers me because it's a degradation of our profession that is akin to a scab crossing a picket line. They think they're getting ahead, but they are hurting us all. Our employers, Pilots, Consumers. The only ones coming out ahead are the upstart ULWCs and perhaps some secondary airports 2 hours outside of a Southern European city...

but if you mean:

"Why do Eurpean Pilots in Canada bother me?"

They don't, I think they should move here and get PR status and TC ATPLs. I think they'd make great immigrants and be a benefit to our country... What bothers me is the pressure foreign labour puts on your and my wages, the pressure they put on our employers and the unfair benefit it gives their employer... Not to mention the cost to our society - access to all our services with no contribution from them or their employer... No CPP, No WCB, No Taxes...

What do you think would happen if GM or Ford brought 300 Venezuelans to Oshawa or Oakville to man the plant during the high season? The public would have a fit and these would be labourers... not licensed professionals... so WTF?
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#84 Post by Rockie » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:58 pm

No Altiplano, I mean why do you take this so personally? Are you offended by GPWS? Do you consider stall warning systems a personal affront to your flying skill?

It would be great if pilots never stalled, hit the ground, or committed suicide after locking the other pilot out of the cockpit...but it happens. We also don't come equipped with a sign on our shirt warning everybody when we're going to do that so safety measures are put in place to mitigate the possibility. It isn't about you.

As for drinking and flying, it's been pointed out that this guy and other guys were stopped. Until such time as they find guys after they've flown the airplane I'd say there isn't a sufficiently serious problem with it. If it is determined there is though and additional safeguards are put in place then suck it up, act like a grown up and accept it as the new reality.
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#85 Post by justwork » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:55 pm

Rockie wrote: As for drinking and flying, it's been pointed out that this guy and other guys were stopped. Until such time as they find guys after they've flown the airplane I'd say there isn't a sufficiently serious problem with it. If it is determined there is though and additional safeguards are put in place then suck it up, act like a grown up and accept it as the new reality.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/can ... -1.1223222

I think it happens and you don't hear about it because most often they get away with it. At my airline you blow to check in, in the crew room. Non event.
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#86 Post by altiplano » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:21 pm

Rockie wrote:No Altiplano, I mean why do you take this so personally? Are you offended by GPWS? Do you consider stall warning systems a personal affront to your flying skill?

It would be great if pilots never stalled, hit the ground, or committed suicide after locking the other pilot out of the cockpit...but it happens. We also don't come equipped with a sign on our shirt warning everybody when we're going to do that so safety measures are put in place to mitigate the possibility. It isn't about you.

As for drinking and flying, it's been pointed out that this guy and other guys were stopped. Until such time as they find guys after they've flown the airplane I'd say there isn't a sufficiently serious problem with it. If it is determined there is though and additional safeguards are put in place then suck it up, act like a grown up and accept it as the new reality.
Get real Rockie... GPWS?! Stall warning! Is that your most apt parallel here?

Get some self respect. How far will you let it go? Douche bags like this guy are making you question your own worth. Your own society. It's a tragedy.
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#87 Post by B738 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:09 am

Back to the topic.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/a ... -1.3695642

This unfortunately happens everywhere in the world.

I'm happy that they get reported/caught.
No one should fly an aircraft with blood alcohol content.
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#88 Post by Rockie » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:44 am

altiplano wrote:Get real Rockie... GPWS?! Stall warning! Is that your most apt parallel here?

Get some self respect. How far will you let it go? Douche bags like this guy are making you question your own worth. Your own society. It's a tragedy.
Ah, your delicate ego is bruised and you feel disrespected.

Do you feel disrespected by Airbus's envelope protections too because you can't be trusted not to stall the airplane? Do you feel like Airbus is "babysitting" you?

It isn't about you Altiplano. Nobody thinks you are going to deliberately crash the airplane. Nobody thinks you are going to show up for work drunk. If TC or your employer thought that you would do that, you wouldn't be allowed within 100 miles of an airplane. But unless you know some other way to reliably identify pilots who really do those things, we'll all have to live with existing mitigation methods despite the grave insult to our precious egos.

Let's try to keep our heads here and realize it's just having a flight attendant in the cockpit for 2 minutes Altiplano. Was that ever an issue for you before TC made it mandatory?
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#89 Post by timel » Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:39 am

Rockie, not so long ago Air France pilots were drinking a glass of wine with their meals while crossing over the ocean, and other stories that belong to the past...

Today you can get legal problems, lose your job and be automatically ashamed and found guilty by the medias if you blow 0.01 at the airport.

My perspective is that the culture is changing, pilots are only getting more professional, safer and more aware of the importance to be perfectly fit before starting duty. Nowadays, everyone wants to sue everyone and as a pilot, you are walking a line that is only getting thinner.

Unlike in our respectable Canadian industry, some of those European low cost don't have anything called "pilot support programs", "paid sick days", "long term sick leaves" or "guaranteed days off".

I don't think more regulations are the answers to every problems. Europe has their own problem, US has their own and we have our own issues, to each to find the appropriate solutions. I have no opinion on the min two people in the cockpit, but now that it is there, not sure it is going to go away any time soon.
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#90 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:32 am

AuxBatOn wrote:Key word: potential.
Yes because some foreign pilots obviously may come from countries that have higher standards than Canada. But there is no wording in Canadian FLVC regulations that restricts the issue of FLVCs to pilots those countries with high standards, it is allowed from any ICAO member country. That could be Haiti. So some foreign pilots applying for FLVCs may come from ICAO member countries that are dysfunctional and corrupt.

Transport Canada generally does no background checks on FLVC applicants and FLVCs are issued at the face value of the paperwork that the applicants provide.

From the Transport Canada document "Staff Instructions SI-400-005 Foreign Validation Certificates" version 2 from 2011:
(i)When an applicant submits original documents, licensing staff must photocopy
each document and certify the copy as a true copy of the original document and
then return the originals to the applicant; and
(ii) Licensing staff are not required to request licence verification unless there are
concerns over the authenticity or validity of the documents presented. It is the
responsibility of the air operator to verify that each licence holder is properly
qualified and holds an appropriate and valid licence and medical certificate.
This is a quote from Greg McConnell, President of the Canadian Federal Pilots association, the Union that regroups all Transport Canada pilot inspectors:
Transport Canada specifically directs staff to not check medicals and licences unless they have a concern," said Greg McConnell with the Canadian Federal Pilots Association, who says it shouldn't be left to airline operators to validate such important information.
Basically, you present a nice looking paper and TC issues an FLVC on the basis of that paper.

When I wanted to transfer my Canadian issued Type rating to my FAA ATPL, I was not able to just walk into an FAA affice and say 'Hey look, I not have a B7378NG Type rating, could you please put it on my US licence ?"

I had to have TC write a letter directly to the FAA, stating I really had said Type rating, and then and only then was I able to walk to the FAA office and have my US licence updated.
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#91 Post by Rockie » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:34 am

But it is going away Timel...in May

In its place we are asking pilots in their annual medical how they feel, whereas in Europe they must now undergo full on psychological testing. Personally I think two in the flightdeck is a much simpler and direct solution, especially since FA's have already spent time in flightdecks for the last 70 years or so and nobody had a problem with it until now - strangely enough. However periodic psych testing may be coming here in North America as well. If it does, it will do so for a reason just like if we end up having to do random drug and sobriety tests.

Things change, threats change, and we have to adapt and change with them. The FD door is a perfect example. We cannot let our petty egos stand in the way of addressing real threats be they suicidal pilots or ones without the sense to show up for work sober.
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#92 Post by timel » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:53 am

Rockie wrote:But it is going away Timel...in May
Not so fast Rockie.

http://www.newstalk770.com/2017/01/06/r ... ref=direct
The Canadian government told Global News it’s “too early” to say whether random alcohol testing of pilots will be considered at a spring aviation safety summit after impaired charges were laid against a Sunwing pilot who was found unconscious in a plane at the Calgary airport.
Personally, I don't mind nice company in the cockpit.
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#93 Post by altiplano » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:54 am

The you go again Rickie.

Envelope protections? Keep your red herrings in your pocket.

Where does it end? It's for show and nothing more. A waste of resources and more BS we will have to deal with.

Why won't they do something about the real safety threats? Guys are falling asleep at the wheel regularly because of our poor rules regarding flight duty and augmentation. They know it and do nothing.

1 guy shows up pissed, and is identified and it's a capital case.

Do you think there are more pilots impaired by fatigue or more pilots impaired by alcohol on a given day?
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#94 Post by Spaceshuttle » Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:13 am

I agree, fatigue under Canadian rules affects 100% of pilots everyday, yet no one in Transport does anything about it. Now political powers get embarrassed by a news story and things happen. I guess public perception is more important than actual safety problems that affect all crew all the time while a sensational problem such as being under the influence which only affects .002 % of crew gets 100% attention and resources. Never ceases to amaze me...
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#95 Post by Rockie » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:03 am

altiplano wrote:The you go again Rickie.

Envelope protections? Keep your red herrings in your pocket.

Where does it end? It's for show and nothing more. A waste of resources and more BS we will have to deal with.

Why won't they do something about the real safety threats? Guys are falling asleep at the wheel regularly because of our poor rules regarding flight duty and augmentation. They know it and do nothing.

1 guy shows up pissed, and is identified and it's a capital case.

Do you think there are more pilots impaired by fatigue or more pilots impaired by alcohol on a given day?
It's not a red herring Altiplano, it's exactly the same principle. And in fact I do remember guys having their noses out of joint over the envelope protections, non-moving thrust levers and general level of automation and FBW. There are to this day many pilots who scoff at such things as a crutch, you might even be one of them. So no, it's exactly the same misguided ego issue.

As for fatigue you are preaching to the choir, but you seem under the impression that because that is a threat pilot intoxication and mental health is not. Are you aware we can tackle more than one threat at once?
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#96 Post by Rockie » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:08 am

Spaceshuttle wrote:I agree, fatigue under Canadian rules affects 100% of pilots everyday, yet no one in Transport does anything about it. Now political powers get embarrassed by a news story and things happen.
I've been preaching this for years over Canada's F&DT regulations. Government works like lightning when they get embarrassed and that is the key. Not getting dragged into yet another years long delaying tactic called CARAC.
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#97 Post by digits_ » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:10 am

Is anybody else waiting to hear a Sunwing flight check in on arrival with Whiskey yet since this happened? :mrgreen:
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#98 Post by NunavutPA-12 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:23 am

"Was that wrong? Should I not have done that? I tell you, I gotta plead ignorance on this thing, because if anyone had said anything at all when I first started here that that sort of thing was frowned upon …. ‘cause you know, I’ve worked in a lot of airplanes and, I tell you, people do that all the time …"

:rolleyes:
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#99 Post by altiplano » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:31 am

Rockie you are misleading the issues talking about Airbus design in the same breath as this.

I guess we'll have to just disagree on the idea that this will enhance safety. I suppose you are a supporter of the recent 20 hour rule too.

I say neither will enhance safety meaningfully. Just like babysitters in the flight deck and my family banned from the flight deck won't enhance safety either.
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Re: Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

#100 Post by 7ECA » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:33 am

NunavutPA-12 wrote:"Was that wrong? Should I not have done that? I tell you, I gotta plead ignorance on this thing, because if anyone had said anything at all when I first started here that that sort of thing was frowned upon …. ‘cause you know, I’ve worked in a lot of airplanes and, I tell you, people do that all the time …"

:rolleyes:
Looking good, Jack! :rolleyes:
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