Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

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Gilles Hudicourt
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Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#1 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:44 am

Call me naive, but I thought Sunwing had turned the page on Temporary Foreign Worker pilots.
Call me naive, but I thought Service Canada had stopped issuing LMIAs allowing foreign airline pilots to take jobs away from Canadian pilots.

The one thing I fully expected was to see Transport Canada shamefully continue to issue Foreign Licence Validation Certificates (FLVC) to foreign pilots in order to allow these foreign pilots to operate Canadian Commercial Aircraft with their foreign licences.

Indeed, just last summer, the Minister of Transport, the Honorable Marc Garneau, modified the regulations in a manner to fully legalize the practice when the French version of Canadian Aviation Regulation 421.07 (2)(j) was changed, lifting the restriction that until then had only allowed the Minister to issue FLVCs in exceptional cirumstances, rather than on a routine basis as Transport Canada had shamefully and illegally been doing for years. Rather then cease the practice, Transport Canada modified the regulation to continue doing what they had been doing in contravention of the regulations.

Canada is the only country in the industrialized world that allows commercial passenger jets operated by its airlines to be flown by foreign pilots with foreign airline licences.

No European country allows this practice, the United States does not allow this practice, Australia does not allow this practice, New Zealand does not allow it.

Minister Marc Garneau allows a bunch of foreign licensed pilots to fly Canadian airliners when the very countries where these pilots come from do not allow Canadian licenced pilots to fly airliners registered in these countries.

Is Canada a Banana Republic or a Third World country where aviation officials accept brown envelopes from airlines ?

Minister Garneau, I ask you to look into this shameful and degrading practice which devaluates the Canadian aviation document that Canadian pilots use to safely operate Canadian aircraft throughout the World.
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

flaps1
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#2 Post by flaps1 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 1:25 am

What's the difference between a TFW flying Canadian passengers on WG airplanes and a wet lease crew flying Canadian passengers on a TS plane?
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#3 Post by Eric Janson » Mon Jan 02, 2017 1:46 am

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:Canada is the only country in the industrialized world that allows commercial passenger jets operated by its airlines to be flown by foreign pilots with foreign airline licences.

No European country allows this practice, the United States does not allow this practice, Australia does not allow this practice, New Zealand does not allow it.
As I've told you before this isn't correct.

I'm flying for a Portuguese company with a Dutch Licence.

Some of my colleagues were flying (EASA) under a validation of their foreign Licences (non EASA) - they have now had to obtain an EASA ATPL.

At my previous employer I flew on a validation of my Dutch Licence (although I did obtain eventually obtain a full ATPL Licence from the state).

Don't let the facts get in the way of your personal agenda.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#4 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:29 am

Eric Janson wrote:
Gilles Hudicourt wrote:Canada is the only country in the industrialized world that allows commercial passenger jets operated by its airlines to be flown by foreign pilots with foreign airline licences.

No European country allows this practice, the United States does not allow this practice, Australia does not allow this practice, New Zealand does not allow it.
As I've told you before this isn't correct.

I'm flying for a Portuguese company with a Dutch Licence.

Some of my colleagues were flying (EASA) under a validation of their foreign Licences (non EASA) - they have now had to obtain an EASA ATPL.

At my previous employer I flew on a validation of my Dutch Licence (although I did obtain eventually obtain a full ATPL Licence from the state).

Don't let the facts get in the way of your personal agenda.
Please don't waste my time or stop being a troll.
Any EU pilot can fly in any other EU country with his/her licence, the EU is now considered one country for aviation purposes......
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#5 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:30 am

flaps1 wrote:What's the difference between a TFW flying Canadian passengers on WG airplanes and a wet lease crew flying Canadian passengers on a TS plane?
Reality and fiction
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#6 Post by flaps1 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:02 am

So who's flying the foreign reg TS 37's out of YYZ?
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#7 Post by Eric Janson » Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:04 am

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Eric Janson wrote:
Gilles Hudicourt wrote:Canada is the only country in the industrialized world that allows commercial passenger jets operated by its airlines to be flown by foreign pilots with foreign airline licences.

No European country allows this practice, the United States does not allow this practice, Australia does not allow this practice, New Zealand does not allow it.
As I've told you before this isn't correct.

I'm flying for a Portuguese company with a Dutch Licence.

Some of my colleagues were flying (EASA) under a validation of their foreign Licences (non EASA) - they have now had to obtain an EASA ATPL.

At my previous employer I flew on a validation of my Dutch Licence (although I did obtain eventually obtain a full ATPL Licence from the state).

Don't let the facts get in the way of your personal agenda.
Please don't waste my time or stop being a troll.
Any EU pilot can fly in any other EU country with his/her licence, the EU is now considered one country for aviation purposes......
I'm merely stating facts - your statement about the EU being one country for licencing purposes is also not correct.

Individual CAAs within the EU are allowed to pass their own regulations that will supersede EASA regulations.

For your information if you work in Turkey it will be on a validation of your foreign licence.

Same in Indonesia.

Same in India.
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#8 Post by altiplano » Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:27 am

You contradict yourself Eric Janson...
Some of my colleagues were flying (EASA) under a validation of their foreign Licences (non EASA) - they have now had to obtain an EASA ATPL.
One side you talk about a validation and then you say they now had to get the license... So what is it?

Turkey isn't in the EU...

Validations in Indonesia? LOL... They can barely keep their aircraft airborne, their airlines are mostly blacklisted, and it isn't what I would call a developed state with a regulator or environment comparable to western comparator nations.
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#9 Post by MKIII » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:00 am

flaps1 wrote:So who's flying the foreign reg TS 37's out of YYZ?
If you are reffering to the F registered planes, they are all flown by TS crews. TS only have 2 37 on wet lease flown by TVS crews.
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#10 Post by flaps1 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:20 am

So not fiction then?

I'm not here to cause a dispute but let's call a spade a spade.
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#11 Post by MKIII » Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:32 pm

flaps1 wrote:So not fiction then?

I'm not here to cause a dispute but let's call a spade a spade.
There are no foreing pilots flying airplanes that are operated on the TS OC. So yes, fiction there is.
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#12 Post by tavca » Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:53 pm

If it wasn't for TS hiring foreigners on wet lease, those jobs could go to a Canadian, working for a Canadian company.

While you're at it. TS should stop working for TVS and taking away foreign jobs from foreign pilots. Completely unacceptable.
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#13 Post by Dh8Classic » Mon Jan 02, 2017 1:42 pm

MKIII wrote:
flaps1 wrote:So who's flying the foreign reg TS 37's out of YYZ?
If you are reffering to the F registered planes, they are all flown by TS crews. TS only have 2 37 on wet lease flown by TVS crews.
Wait a minute. TS has foreign pilots flying in Canada?

Is it fully reciprocal?
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#14 Post by Eric Janson » Mon Jan 02, 2017 1:52 pm

altiplano wrote:You contradict yourself Eric Janson...
Some of my colleagues were flying (EASA) under a validation of their foreign Licences (non EASA) - they have now had to obtain an EASA ATPL.
One side you talk about a validation and then you say they now had to get the license... So what is it?

Turkey isn't in the EU...

Validations in Indonesia? LOL... They can barely keep their aircraft airborne, their airlines are mostly blacklisted, and it isn't what I would call a developed state with a regulator or environment comparable to western comparator nations.
I'm responding to Gilles who incorrectly claims that only Canada has foreign Pilots flying on a validation of their foreign licences

You used to be able to get a validation of a foreign licence under EASA - that is no longer possible. Hope that clarifies things.

I have listed several countries where you fly under a validation of a foreign licence - you will not be issued with a local licence.

No contradiction - just pointing out a few facts.
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#15 Post by DrSpaceman » Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:13 pm

Dh8Classic wrote:
MKIII wrote:
flaps1 wrote:So who's flying the foreign reg TS 37's out of YYZ?
If you are reffering to the F registered planes, they are all flown by TS crews. TS only have 2 37 on wet lease flown by TVS crews.
Wait a minute. TS has foreign pilots flying in Canada?

Is it fully reciprocal?

TS has 330s in warsaw with crew
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#16 Post by altiplano » Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:47 pm

Eric Janson wrote:
altiplano wrote:You contradict yourself Eric Janson...
Some of my colleagues were flying (EASA) under a validation of their foreign Licences (non EASA) - they have now had to obtain an EASA ATPL.
One side you talk about a validation and then you say they now had to get the license... So what is it?

Turkey isn't in the EU...

Validations in Indonesia? LOL... They can barely keep their aircraft airborne, their airlines are mostly blacklisted, and it isn't what I would call a developed state with a regulator or environment comparable to western comparator nations.
I'm responding to Gilles who incorrectly claims that only Canada has foreign Pilots flying on a validation of their foreign licences

You used to be able to get a validation of a foreign licence under EASA - that is no longer possible. Hope that clarifies things.

I have listed several countries where you fly under a validation of a foreign licence - you will not be issued with a local licence.

No contradiction - just pointing out a few facts.
No you're not pointing out facts. You are muddying the waters with incomplete statements.

Nor are you responding to Gilles' statements
Gilles wrote: Canada is the only country in the industrialized world that allows commercial passenger jets operated by its airlines to be flown by foreign pilots with foreign airline licences.
And you offer Indonesia and India? Maybe you should pick one from West Africa just so you have the geography covered...
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#17 Post by BE20 Driver » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:13 pm

This issue has not gone to bed and it will continue as long as 1. the Government caves to corporate influence; 2. The public doesn't care enough about TFW pilots who make their vacation $50 cheaper on Sunwing vs a Canadian airline.

How does it stop? I believe that bitching about it here and leaving the work to Gilles isn't going to solve anything. I humbly suggest that you take 15 minutes of your time to fire off a few emails. Top of the list would be minister Garneau and minister MaryAnn Mihychuk (Workforce Development and Labour)... as well as your own MP. Contact information for each minister can be found here: http://www.lop.parl.gc.ca/ParlInfo/Comp ... x?Menu=HOC

Also, if you fly professionally, contact your union or association reps. If ALPA, ACPA and the WJPA came together to voice an opinion about this issue it might start to get traction again.

I also tend to think that a little negative publicity wouldn't hurt either (ie. Dear CBC/CTV..., Did you know that the liberal government is doing just as badly as the Conservatives were at stopping the flow of cheap and shady TFW...)

A quick email to several people might just help keep this issue from slowly getting worse
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#18 Post by HansDietrich » Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:02 pm

As a Canadian pilot that busted his ass for more than 7 years flying in the Arctic, I find that the practice of hiring temporary foreign pilots INSULTING. So, I may not have a 737 Type Rating, but that's hardly a "disqualifying" factor, considering I've been flying left seat, turboprops for a while. Never mind the many laid off corporate jet pilots, etc etc that are more than qualified (minus a 737 TR) to fly for Sunwing.

Because of that, I have not and will never fly or go on any vacation where Sunwing operates the flight. There are other options, even if they are more expensive. I also tell every one of my friends that fly Sunwing what they do. Most don't care, as long as they get their $600 all inclusive trip to Cuba. They'd fly Air Botswana if the price was "right"

On a side note, these foreign pilots only fly EU registered aircraft "OK-", or do they fly our "C-" registered ones?

Thanks (Sorry for the rant)
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#19 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:21 am

HansDietrich wrote: On a side note, these foreign pilots only fly EU registered aircraft "OK-", or do they fly our "C-" registered ones?

Thanks (Sorry for the rant)
Both!

Sunwing uses foreign wet-leases, where the foreign pilots come with their own foreign registered aircraft that they fly under their own OC.

But because the number of foreign wet-leases aircraft that they can import is limited by Canadian Transportation Agency policy, they bring in additional foreign pilots who come to Canada to fly Canadian registered B-737NGs flown under the Sunwing OC.

The accused pilots was one of the latter group......

Gilles
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#20 Post by rudder » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:32 am

Gilles,

As I understand it, the TFWP application process is a matter of public record.

Do you have a copy of the Sunwing TFWP application for foreign pilots for 2016/2017? What about the LMO?
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#21 Post by richardhead » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:53 am

Is Sunwing the only company that uses FP's? I thought Transat and Georgian were also using them. Argument should be with the government. Typically though Canadian pilots can only act like children rather unite in the hopes of making things better for the masses. Nothing will ever change in this country because of it. And they all know it.
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#22 Post by Spaceshuttle » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:16 am

Ok, it's very easy to stop this job give away by these airlines, explain why constant wet leases and TFW's are keeping Canadian Licensed Pilots unemployed.

Write your MP, tell him/her enough...

Just google your MP for your locale and tap the email button!

Power in Numbers!
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#23 Post by BE20 Driver » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:53 pm

I couldn't agree more. Get out in numbers. If enough people email the opposition party, something might even show up in question period. Kelly Block is the critic for transportation and Gérard Deltell is the critic for Labour.

I also wonder if this pilot was a "problem" employee who was sent overseas to get him out of Europe. Do we really know anything about the people that are being brought in aside from the fact that they have a 737 type rating?
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#24 Post by gonnabeapilot » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:25 pm

MKIII wrote:
flaps1 wrote:So not fiction then?

I'm not here to cause a dispute but let's call a spade a spade.
There are no foreing pilots flying airplanes that are operated on the TS OC. So yes, fiction there is.
This post reflects a common sentiment that has been repeatedly expressed by both Gilles and other pilots on this forum... foreign pilots operating in Canada under wet lease arrangements are okay but foreign pilots operating in Canada under FLVC's are a plague upon our industry and Transport Canada is a banana republic style operator for allowing it. I know that Gilles used to object to this based on the regulatory legalese in the CARs which is an argument I could understand but since the regulatory language has been tightened up this sentiment still persists... wet lease = acceptable, FLVCs = bad.

My question to Gilles and the others who share this sentiment is why? Shouldn't the focus be on reciprocal numbers and not the method in which they're achieved? (Wet lease vs FLVCs). If the focus must be on the method, isn't the FLVC method actually better for the safety of our industry and the travelling public? Let's break the two methods down:

FLVC method (favoured by Sunwing)
- Foreign pilots are screened by the Canadian airline for qualifications and suitability.
- Foreign pilots receive groundschool instructed by Canadian pilots and supervised by Transport Canada on operational differences in Canada, CARs, and company procedures
- Foreign pilots receive simulator instruction and a check ride conducted by Canadian pilots and supervised by Transport Canada using the SOPs of the airline they're operating for.
- Foreign pilots receive four sectors of line Indoc conducted by Canadian pilots and then must pass a line check conducted by a Canadian check pilot.
- Foreign pilots operate mix crew with Canadian pilots which allows any issues of concern to be flagged by Canadian pilots and brought up to the Canadian airline.

Wet lease method (favoured by Transat and Gilles)
- Foreign pilots are screened by the Canadian airline for qualifications and suitability.
- Foreign pilots operate in Canada with no further oversight.

People can say that Transport Canada is out to lunch for being one of the few regulators that allows FLVCs but I think they should be applauded for creating a method to allow foreign crews to operate in Canada with far more regulatory over-sight, checks and balances than the traditional wet lease allows.
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#25 Post by Rowdy » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:29 pm

BE20 Driver wrote: I also wonder if this pilot was a "problem" employee who was sent overseas to get him out of Europe. Do we really know anything about the people that are being brought in aside from the fact that they have a 737 type rating?
There are many pilots that are passed off to other operators with glowing recommends, even though they are 'problems' because no one wants to address the issues. Its easier to just get them off the payroll and hope for the best.

I've watched this happen a couple of times and it still leaves me wide eyed. One individual called it the golden handshake. :shock:
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