Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#26 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:36 pm

rudder wrote:Gilles,

As I understand it, the TFWP application process is a matter of public record.

Do you have a copy of the Sunwing TFWP application for foreign pilots for 2016/2017? What about the LMO?
I hadn't made an ATIP for one because I thought this was over, but I am sending for the 2016 Sunwing TFW file this week.
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#27 Post by gonnabeapilot » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:38 pm

rudder wrote:Gilles,

As I understand it, the TFWP application process is a matter of public record.

Do you have a copy of the Sunwing TFWP application for foreign pilots for 2016/2017? What about the LMO?
I don't know the ins and outs of the process anywhere close to the level of understanding Gilles has but my understanding is that the foreign pilots operating for Sunwing this year were not brought in under the program that required the LMO.

Sunwing used a different program this winter that allowed for one work permit to be granted for a foreign pilot for every work permit that was granted to a Canadian Sunwing pilot by a foreign government in the summer of 2016. Unlike the LMO method this new method means that the numbers of foreign pilots operating for Sunwing can never exceed 1:1 reciprocity.

This past summer there were 7 aircraft of Canadian crews operating in Europe vs the 6 aircraft worth of foreign crews operating in Canada for Sunwing this winter (4 aircraft of FLVC crews and 2 wet-leases). Next summer Sunwing is expecting to operate 9 aircraft in Europe meaning the numbers of Canadian pilots heading to Europe now exceeds the number of foreign pilots coming to Canada, tilting the scales in the favour of Canadian pilots.
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#28 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:44 pm

gonnabeapilot wrote:
MKIII wrote:
flaps1 wrote:So not fiction then?

I'm not here to cause a dispute but let's call a spade a spade.
There are no foreing pilots flying airplanes that are operated on the TS OC. So yes, fiction there is.
This post reflects a common sentiment that has been repeatedly expressed by both Gilles and other pilots on this forum... foreign pilots operating in Canada under wet lease arrangements are okay but foreign pilots operating in Canada under FLVC's are a plague upon our industry and Transport Canada is a banana republic style operator for allowing it. I know that Gilles used to object to this based on the regulatory legalese in the CARs which is an argument I could understand but since the regulatory language has been tightened up this sentiment still persists... wet lease = acceptable, FLVCs = bad.

My question to Gilles and the others who share this sentiment is why? Shouldn't the focus be on reciprocal numbers and not the method in which they're achieved? (Wet lease vs FLVCs). If the focus must be on the method, isn't the FLVC method actually better for the safety of our industry and the travelling public? Let's break the two methods down:

FLVC method (favoured by Sunwing)
- Foreign pilots are screened by the Canadian airline for qualifications and suitability.
- Foreign pilots receive groundschool instructed by Canadian pilots and supervised by Transport Canada on operational differences in Canada, CARs, and company procedures
- Foreign pilots receive simulator instruction and a check ride conducted by Canadian pilots and supervised by Transport Canada using the SOPs of the airline they're operating for.
- Foreign pilots receive four sectors of line Indoc conducted by Canadian pilots and then must pass a line check conducted by a Canadian check pilot.
- Foreign pilots operate mix crew with Canadian pilots which allows any issues of concern to be flagged by Canadian pilots and brought up to the Canadian airline.

Wet lease method (favoured by Transat and Gilles)
- Foreign pilots are screened by the Canadian airline for qualifications and suitability.
- Foreign pilots operate in Canada with no further oversight.

People can say that Transport Canada is out to lunch for being one of the few regulators that allows FLVCs but I think they should be applauded for creating a method to allow foreign crews to operate in Canada with far more regulatory over-sight, checks and balances than the traditional wet lease allows.
Wet lease is what the Europeans allow in Europe. They do not allow Canadian pilots to come and fly European aircraft.
Thus, Wet leases is what we should allow into Canada.
The Canadian Transportation Agency, which approves the wet leases into Canada has a policy limiting the number of wet leases that can be imported.
The CTA also has a policy of only allowing allowing wet-leases from countries that also allow Canadian wet leases into their countries.

Transport Canada and Services Canada have no policy on the number of Foreign Pilots they wil allow into the country. One year Sunwing had more foreign pilots than Canadian pilots.

Transport Canada and Services Canada have no policy on refusing pilots from countries that to not allow Canadian pilots to fly in aircraft registered in their countries. They are allowing these foreign pilots to do in Canada what the countries these foreign pilots come from do not allow Canadian pilots to do in their countries.

Thus there are protections under the Wet Leases but none under the work permits/FLVCs.

Services Canada and Transport Canada look out for their industry buddies and their profits. Canadian pilots are expendables to them.

Sorry I am in a rush have a WJ flight to catch.......
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#29 Post by Spaceshuttle » Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:33 pm

Why was this pilot in Calgary a Captain ?? Why do they bring in foreign Captains? Are there No upgradable FO's at Sunwing? Amazing...
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#30 Post by mijbil » Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:21 pm

Here is what my wife emailed in yesterday. I've also just sent her the link to this thread with the contact info that BE20 driver noted.

I told her to get the rest of the inlaws and outlaws onside as well and to get them to write in also. Perhaps that will make a difference although JT and his Sunni Ways band are only a year in power and seem to have other agendas (like going on vacation a lot) so all we can do is make the effort and perhaps JT will get the rules re-written to curb the TFW problem. DT south of the border seems to have little trouble putting the USA first. Maybe JT can follow his example :wink:
Here is what was sent in:
The recent arrest of a Sunwing Airlines pilot (temporary foreign worker) has highlighted to me the fact that the Temporary Foreign Worker program is still unfortunately being utilized by certain corporations and companies to the exclusion of fully qualified Canadians simply as a cost savings measure. The rationale for the program is that companies cannot find qualified individuals in Canada to work so they must rely on cut-rate foreigners to do the job. While this may hold true for some sectors of the economy such as for manual farm labour, it is certainly not the case for more technically skilled occupations such as commercial pilot.

My husband and I are both pilots with university degrees. He chose to fly for a career. I did not. I earn more working in government. His current employer (a Canadian airline), within the last two years laid off over 25 Canadian pilots with the crash of the oil sands. Some of these pilots spent months looking for aviation jobs in Canada. Several were turned away from jobs with Sunwing and ended up at airlines such as Air Canada Jazz and WestJet Encore. The pay for first officers at these airlines is less than $39,000 per year. The cost for aviation training to the commercial level can exceed a hundred thousand dollars—more than a medical or law degree. The general public is often shocked to find out how little first officers earn. Bus drivers are paid more. Consequently due to low pay and limited opportunity, many Canadian pilots are being lured by better flying opportunities in Asia or other parts of the world.

A true examination and analysis of this program is required and with a view to determining if there truly is a shortage of qualified Canadians in skilled sectors of the economy, or if this is simply a method for unscrupulous employers to utilize cut rate foreigners. Given the current decline in the economy, or indeed at any time, it should be the aim of the Federal government to promote full employment for Canadians first, even if this causes a slight increase in labour costs. The Trudeau government has stated that “It’s all for helping out the middle class”. Let’s see some action then. Please give me a date when this program will be curtailed or better yet eliminated so as to benefit the real middle class of Canadians and not the bottom line of a corporation.
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#31 Post by Spaceshuttle » Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:07 pm

Well written MIJBIL!

Another question is what "charges or penalties" can be imposed by TC as they state they will do in the news story. This pilot has no Canadian license? How can they suspend or revoke what he doesnt have? Do they have his last medical? Did he state on his medical form that he drank more than a normal consumption level as I and all Canadian pilots are required to fill in every year?
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#32 Post by EPR » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:12 pm

Thanks mijbil for the info and Giles thank's for your tireless effort in fighting for Canadian Pilots....here's my submission to my MP (those of you who feel this is an injustice to our profession, feel free to copy and paste to your local MP):

Dear (whoever your MP is)

The recent arrest of a Sunwing Airlines pilot (temporary foreign worker) has highlighted to me the fact that the Temporary Foreign Worker program is still unfortunately being utilized by certain corporations and companies to the exclusion of fully qualified Canadians simply as a cost savings measure. The rationale for the program is that companies cannot find qualified individuals in Canada to work so they must rely on cut-rate foreigners to do the job. While this may hold true for some sectors of the economy such as for manual farm labour, it is certainly not the case for more technically skilled occupations such as a Canadian commercial Airline Pilot!

My friends current employer (a Canadian airline), within the last two years laid off over 25 Canadian pilots with the crash of the oil sands. Some of these pilots spent months looking for aviation jobs in Canada. Several were turned away from jobs with Sunwing and ended up at airlines such as Air Canada Jazz and WestJet Encore. The pay for first officers at these airlines is less than $39,000 per year. The cost for aviation training to the commercial level can exceed a hundred thousand dollars—more than a medical or law degree. The general public is often shocked to find out how little first officers earn. Bus drivers are paid more. Consequently due to low pay and limited opportunity, many Canadian pilots are being lured by better flying opportunities in Asia or other parts of the world.

A true examination and analysis of this program is required and with a view to determining if there truly is a shortage of qualified Canadians in skilled sectors of the economy, or if this is simply a method for unscrupulous employers to utilize cut rate foreigners (through loopholes in the current policy). Given the current decline in the economy, or indeed at any time, it should be the aim of the Federal government to promote full employment for Canadians first, even if this causes a slight increase in labour costs. The Trudeau government has stated that “It’s all for helping out the middle class”. Let’s see some action then. Please give me a date when this program will be curtailed or better yet eliminated so as to benefit the real middle class of Canadians and not the bottom line of a corporation.

Yours truly,
Kiss my ass (your name here)
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#33 Post by ea306 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:29 pm

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
gonnabeapilot wrote:
MKIII wrote:
There are no foreing pilots flying airplanes that are operated on the TS OC. So yes, fiction there is.
This post reflects a common sentiment that has been repeatedly expressed by both Gilles and other pilots on this forum... foreign pilots operating in Canada under wet lease arrangements are okay but foreign pilots operating in Canada under FLVC's are a plague upon our industry and Transport Canada is a banana republic style operator for allowing it. I know that Gilles used to object to this based on the regulatory legalese in the CARs which is an argument I could understand but since the regulatory language has been tightened up this sentiment still persists... wet lease = acceptable, FLVCs = bad.

My question to Gilles and the others who share this sentiment is why? Shouldn't the focus be on reciprocal numbers and not the method in which they're achieved? (Wet lease vs FLVCs). If the focus must be on the method, isn't the FLVC method actually better for the safety of our industry and the travelling public? Let's break the two methods down:

FLVC method (favoured by Sunwing)
- Foreign pilots are screened by the Canadian airline for qualifications and suitability.
- Foreign pilots receive groundschool instructed by Canadian pilots and supervised by Transport Canada on operational differences in Canada, CARs, and company procedures
- Foreign pilots receive simulator instruction and a check ride conducted by Canadian pilots and supervised by Transport Canada using the SOPs of the airline they're operating for.
- Foreign pilots receive four sectors of line Indoc conducted by Canadian pilots and then must pass a line check conducted by a Canadian check pilot.
- Foreign pilots operate mix crew with Canadian pilots which allows any issues of concern to be flagged by Canadian pilots and brought up to the Canadian airline.

Wet lease method (favoured by Transat and Gilles)
- Foreign pilots are screened by the Canadian airline for qualifications and suitability.
- Foreign pilots operate in Canada with no further oversight.

People can say that Transport Canada is out to lunch for being one of the few regulators that allows FLVCs but I think they should be applauded for creating a method to allow foreign crews to operate in Canada with far more regulatory over-sight, checks and balances than the traditional wet lease allows.
Wet lease is what the Europeans allow in Europe. They do not allow Canadian pilots to come and fly European aircraft.
Thus, Wet leases is what we should allow into Canada.
The Canadian Transportation Agency, which approves the wet leases into Canada has a policy limiting the number of wet leases that can be imported.
The CTA also has a policy of only allowing allowing wet-leases from countries that also allow Canadian wet leases into their countries.

Transport Canada and Services Canada have no policy on the number of Foreign Pilots they wil allow into the country. One year Sunwing had more foreign pilots than Canadian pilots.

Transport Canada and Services Canada have no policy on refusing pilots from countries that to not allow Canadian pilots to fly in aircraft registered in their countries. They are allowing these foreign pilots to do in Canada what the countries these foreign pilots come from do not allow Canadian pilots to do in their countries.

Thus there are protections under the Wet Leases but none under the work permits/FLVCs.

Services Canada and Transport Canada look out for their industry buddies and their profits. Canadian pilots are expendables to them.

Sorry I am in a rush have a WJ flight to catch.......

Learned the other day from a TVS pilot that said TVS Captain operated B737 last year under the TS Wet Lease based in YUL. So it is apparent that neither operating a Wet Lease or with a FLVC makes any difference... Or does it? We will never know other than that the accused was identified and stopped from operating the aircraft in YYC.
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#34 Post by florch » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:40 am

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
gonnabeapilot wrote:
MKIII wrote:
There are no foreing pilots flying airplanes that are operated on the TS OC. So yes, fiction there is.
This post reflects a common sentiment that has been repeatedly expressed by both Gilles and other pilots on this forum... foreign pilots operating in Canada under wet lease arrangements are okay but foreign pilots operating in Canada under FLVC's are a plague upon our industry and Transport Canada is a banana republic style operator for allowing it. I know that Gilles used to object to this based on the regulatory legalese in the CARs which is an argument I could understand but since the regulatory language has been tightened up this sentiment still persists... wet lease = acceptable, FLVCs = bad.

My question to Gilles and the others who share this sentiment is why? Shouldn't the focus be on reciprocal numbers and not the method in which they're achieved? (Wet lease vs FLVCs). If the focus must be on the method, isn't the FLVC method actually better for the safety of our industry and the travelling public? Let's break the two methods down:

FLVC method (favoured by Sunwing)
- Foreign pilots are screened by the Canadian airline for qualifications and suitability.
- Foreign pilots receive groundschool instructed by Canadian pilots and supervised by Transport Canada on operational differences in Canada, CARs, and company procedures
- Foreign pilots receive simulator instruction and a check ride conducted by Canadian pilots and supervised by Transport Canada using the SOPs of the airline they're operating for.
- Foreign pilots receive four sectors of line Indoc conducted by Canadian pilots and then must pass a line check conducted by a Canadian check pilot.
- Foreign pilots operate mix crew with Canadian pilots which allows any issues of concern to be flagged by Canadian pilots and brought up to the Canadian airline.

Wet lease method (favoured by Transat and Gilles)
- Foreign pilots are screened by the Canadian airline for qualifications and suitability.
- Foreign pilots operate in Canada with no further oversight.

People can say that Transport Canada is out to lunch for being one of the few regulators that allows FLVCs but I think they should be applauded for creating a method to allow foreign crews to operate in Canada with far more regulatory over-sight, checks and balances than the traditional wet lease allows.
Wet lease is what the Europeans allow in Europe. They do not allow Canadian pilots to come and fly European aircraft.
Thus, Wet leases is what we should allow into Canada.
The Canadian Transportation Agency, which approves the wet leases into Canada has a policy limiting the number of wet leases that can be imported.
The CTA also has a policy of only allowing allowing wet-leases from countries that also allow Canadian wet leases into their countries.

Transport Canada and Services Canada have no policy on the number of Foreign Pilots they wil allow into the country. One year Sunwing had more foreign pilots than Canadian pilots.

Transport Canada and Services Canada have no policy on refusing pilots from countries that to not allow Canadian pilots to fly in aircraft registered in their countries. They are allowing these foreign pilots to do in Canada what the countries these foreign pilots come from do not allow Canadian pilots to do in their countries.

Thus there are protections under the Wet Leases but none under the work permits/FLVCs.

Services Canada and Transport Canada look out for their industry buddies and their profits. Canadian pilots are expendables to them.

Sorry I am in a rush have a WJ flight to catch.......
Gilles, your intentions became transparent long ago. You originally used to beat the drum that as long as it was reciprocal it was a winning deal for Canadian pilots and all involved. It is reciprocal or better now and for most years for Canadian pilots at Sunwing. FLVC is of course better for Canadian pilots and the public than wet lease. These pilots fly under Canadian SOP's, and Canadian supervision. From the start you've always used Sunwing in every thread title, even when Canjet or Transat, or Air Canada or West Jet or Cargo Jet or anyone else was using foreign pilots or wet leases. Your hypocritical purpose is solely to slag Sunwing because Sunwing is Transat's biggest competitor. Sunwing has created more jobs for Canadian pilots because of seasonally sharing work and airframes with Europeans than would have been possible without it. FLVC's used properly create Canadian jobs and you know it.
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#35 Post by florch » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:46 am

mijbil wrote:Here is what my wife emailed in yesterday. I've also just sent her the link to this thread with the contact info that BE20 driver noted.

I told her to get the rest of the inlaws and outlaws onside as well and to get them to write in also. Perhaps that will make a difference although JT and his Sunni Ways band are only a year in power and seem to have other agendas (like going on vacation a lot) so all we can do is make the effort and perhaps JT will get the rules re-written to curb the TFW problem. DT south of the border seems to have little trouble putting the USA first. Maybe JT can follow his example :wink:
Here is what was sent in:
The recent arrest of a Sunwing Airlines pilot (temporary foreign worker) has highlighted to me the fact that the Temporary Foreign Worker program is still unfortunately being utilized by certain corporations and companies to the exclusion of fully qualified Canadians simply as a cost savings measure. The rationale for the program is that companies cannot find qualified individuals in Canada to work so they must rely on cut-rate foreigners to do the job. While this may hold true for some sectors of the economy such as for manual farm labour, it is certainly not the case for more technically skilled occupations such as commercial pilot.

My husband and I are both pilots with university degrees. He chose to fly for a career. I did not. I earn more working in government. His current employer (a Canadian airline), within the last two years laid off over 25 Canadian pilots with the crash of the oil sands. Some of these pilots spent months looking for aviation jobs in Canada. Several were turned away from jobs with Sunwing and ended up at airlines such as Air Canada Jazz and WestJet Encore. The pay for first officers at these airlines is less than $39,000 per year. The cost for aviation training to the commercial level can exceed a hundred thousand dollars—more than a medical or law degree. The general public is often shocked to find out how little first officers earn. Bus drivers are paid more. Consequently due to low pay and limited opportunity, many Canadian pilots are being lured by better flying opportunities in Asia or other parts of the world.

A true examination and analysis of this program is required and with a view to determining if there truly is a shortage of qualified Canadians in skilled sectors of the economy, or if this is simply a method for unscrupulous employers to utilize cut rate foreigners. Given the current decline in the economy, or indeed at any time, it should be the aim of the Federal government to promote full employment for Canadians first, even if this causes a slight increase in labour costs. The Trudeau government has stated that “It’s all for helping out the middle class”. Let’s see some action then. Please give me a date when this program will be curtailed or better yet eliminated so as to benefit the real middle class of Canadians and not the bottom line of a corporation.
The number of pilots Sunwing needs is based on how many they need in the summer. If Sunwing reciprocates with European airlines and allows Canadian Pilots to work in Europe in the summer, this creates Canadian jobs. Good paying, permanent, full time jobs where pilots don't get laid off in the summer.
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#36 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:40 am

florch wrote: Gilles, your intentions became transparent long ago. You originally used to beat the drum that as long as it was reciprocal it was a winning deal for Canadian pilots and all involved. It is reciprocal or better now and for most years for Canadian pilots at Sunwing. FLVC is of course better for Canadian pilots and the public than wet lease. These pilots fly under Canadian SOP's, and Canadian supervision. From the start you've always used Sunwing in every thread title, even when Canjet or Transat, or Air Canada or West Jet or Cargo Jet or anyone else was using foreign pilots or wet leases. Your hypocritical purpose is solely to slag Sunwing because Sunwing is Transat's biggest competitor. Sunwing has created more jobs for Canadian pilots because of seasonally sharing work and airframes with Europeans than would have been possible without it. FLVC's used properly create Canadian jobs and you know it.

I've only written this stuff a million times when having to face ridiculous accusations such as yours, but here it goes again:

Yes, in theory reciprocity is excellent and something that is to be encouraged. I am all for it.

But do not ignore what my beef was with Sunwing.

1) I kept track of pilot exchanges between Sunwing and Foreign operators from 2006 to 2015 (I do not have 2016/2017 figures). They were consistently in favor of European pilots by a very wide margin.
Sending 40 to 60 Canadian pilots to Europe against 150 to 220 European pilots coming to Canada is not reciprocity. Its abuse.
Except for one year where Sunwing had sent 7 aircraft to Europe (roughly 100 pilots, which was still less than the number of foreign pilots they brought in the following winter), all the other years, they only sent between 2 and 4 aircraft overseas in the summer (28 to 56 pilots) and always brought in well over 100 foreign pilots the following winter.

2) Immigration Canada has a reciprocal work exchange program that Sunwing worked under to obtain foreign pilots in the past. Immigration Canada keeps track of how many workers go back and forth, which in theory would protect Canadian workers. But when Immigration Canada told Sunwing they had reached their quota of Foreign pilots, they did not stop. They turned to another program called the Temporary Foreign Workers program, which is not overseen by Immigration Canada but by Service Canada. Service Canada and Immigration Canada were not talking to each other. So when Sunwing was denied additional foreign pilots by Immigration Canada on the basis of reciprocity, they applied for TFW to Service Canada who approved additional foreign pilots. When again, those were not enough, they went to the Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA) and wet-leased foreign aircraft and obtained more Foreign pilots that way. Transport Canada looked the other way, claiming it was none of their business. So no one had an overall picture of the number of Foreign pilots at Sunwing and it was no ones jobs to control that number. That is how one winter, there were 140 Canadian pilots and something like 220 foreign pilots. Immigration Canada, Service Canada, the Canadian Transportation Agency and Transport Canada were not talking to each other, until ALPA Canada got all of them sitting down at the same table to make each aware of the overall picture.
On top of what I just described, Sunwing was not exactly above board with all these Federal Agencies in their applications.

3) When Skyservice did the same for many years, no one complained because they did real 1 to 1 reciprocity and at the time, the good people at Transport Canada were permitted by their bosses to apply the Canadian Aviation Regulations to a certain extent. No longer is this the case. The FLVC regulations were distorted in a manner that those who originally wrote them would not recognize the way TC is interpreting them today. No other industrialized country in the world allows foreign licensed pilots to come and work years after year in their country to fly under a domestic Certificate. The UK does not. Germany does not. The Netherlands does not. Belgium does not. The Czech Republic does not. Slovakia does not. Hungary does not.
So why should Canada allow foreign pilots to do in Canada what the countries these same foreign pilots come from do not allow Canadian pilots to do in their respective country ?

4) Under pressure from Canadian Airline industry, the Minister of Transport relented and put restrictions on the number of Foreign Wet-leases a Canadian airline can apply for: 20% of its fleet at the time of application, and these can only come from countries that allow Canadian wet-leases in reciprocity. This is the only Federal Canadian entity that put restrictions that allows for fair reciprocity. Originally, Sunwing was claiming they could wet-lease any number of foreign aircraft they required and from any country, which raised alarm bells in every major airline in this country. This is why this mechanism, which is the only one where there are restrictions and protections is the one I think we should use for now. It is the only one that prevents abuse as we have seen in the past. Transport Canada seem no problem with an airline that has 140 Canadian pilots and 220 foreign ones, so we must find protection where is exists. This winter, Sunwing applied for the maximum number of foreign wet leases the CTA would allow, and when that was not enough, they turned to the TFW program and applied for a number of Foreign licenced pilots to come to Canada and fly Canadian aircraft under the Sunwing OC.
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#37 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:10 pm

This article was written by Greg McConnell, President of the Union that represents all Transport Canada inspectors.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.thestar ... -rogers-ca
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#38 Post by 1000islander » Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:58 pm

This is ridiculous...why would anybody try to justify non residents coming to this country to take jobs that could be filled by residents?!!!! Doesn't anybody remember how hard it was breaking into the next level of flying??
This industry is tight enough for pilots trying to gain experience without having an artificial barrier placed in front of them. If the seasonal operators want to expand in the winter, so be it, let them pay for the training.
I hate to quote the new president but lets put Canada first!!!
Kudos to you Gilles, for your tenacity!!!
Maybe the Minister will finally pay attention!
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#39 Post by AuxBatOn » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:15 pm

The TFW piece has to do with Citizenship and Immigration Canada, not Transport Canada. They are the ones regulating who comes and works in the Country. TC's mandate is to provide safe and secure transportation systems. Going into the details of TC's rules for TFLVs and insuniating major Canadian airlines don't do their due diligence in hiring TFWs (approved by CIC) is a very weak argument for changing the system. If the FLVC was to be changed, all a company would have to do is get their TFWs to pass the SARON, SAMRA, INRAT, an IFR ride with a compny designated examiner on a small twin and a sim ride. And then they would be allowed to operate any aircraft in Canada, provided they have valid immigration documents. If you want a leg to stand on, go direct to the source: is there really a requirement to import that labour and are there equal benefits.

While crying about safety is catchy and the general population is generally safety-concious, it is simply not founded that TFWs are less safe than Canadian-licensed pilots and people in positions to make changes see right through this.
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#40 Post by complexintentions » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:27 am

Given that gaining a Canadian ATPL is a joke compared to obtaining the EASA ATPL, not sure what all the fuss is about TFLV's. The EASA one meets a far higher standard anyway.

The danger is that if Canada starts insisting on foreign pilots holding Canadian licenses, Europe might impose reciprocity and require Canadians to hold an EASA to fly in Europe.

I can assure you that would be far more punitive to Canadians than Europeans lol.
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#41 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:22 am

complexintentions wrote: The danger is that if Canada starts insisting on foreign pilots holding Canadian licenses, Europe might impose reciprocity and require Canadians to hold an EASA to fly in Europe.
That is precisely the point! It is already the case!

EASA already does require that Canadian licensed pilots hold an EASA licence to fly under a European OC.
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#42 Post by AuxBatOn » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:52 am

Do you really think, Gilles, that requiring a canadian ATPL will stop TFWs at Sunwing??
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#43 Post by gonnabeapilot » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:17 pm

This summer Sunwing will officially be deploying 10 aircraft to Europe which means approximately 180 Canadian pilots will be working in the EU and the UK this summer. Not only does it mean that these Canadian pilots will remain employed over the summer months instead of seeing seasonal lay-offs, Sunwing will need to hire 34 more Canadian pilots into full time positions to fulfill the crewing requirements of this European contract.

Contrast this with the approximately 100 European pilots that were working in Canada this winter on the Sunwing contract and you can see that the scales have firmly tipped into Canadian pilots' favour when it comes to reciprocity. If this information doesn't demonstrate the benefits this program can have for Canadian pilots, nothing will as I can't see how it's anything but good news for Canadian pilots and our industry.
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Re: Sunwing and Foreign pilots again

#44 Post by complexintentions » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:35 am

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
complexintentions wrote: The danger is that if Canada starts insisting on foreign pilots holding Canadian licenses, Europe might impose reciprocity and require Canadians to hold an EASA to fly in Europe.
That is precisely the point! It is already the case!

EASA already does require that Canadian licensed pilots hold an EASA licence to fly under a European OC.
No. I said "To fly in Europe". You make much of the fact they are flying under a Canadian OC, would it make you feel better if they brought their own aircraft over? The fact is there are tons of Canadian non-EASA holders basing and flying in Europe half the year - and they don't even have so much as a license validation, such as the one you are always complaining about.

The point is you don't want to start a licensing arms race with the EU - it would be Canadian pilots getting butt-hurt obtaining an EASA, the Canadian ATPL is a cinch in comparison.

As far as the idiot trying to claim there are different levels of EASA, try again. Just typical Canadian passive-aggressive superiority complex. Canada is incredibly corrupt.
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