Per Diems

[TG]

Ah for f**** ****

You have 2 job offers:
one offers you 100k/year with 30 CAD/day per diem, the other one is 100k/year with 50 CAD/day per diem. Both jobs are identical. Which one do you pick?

The issue is more this one.

You have 2 job offers:
one offers you 35k/year with 30 CAD/day per diem, the other one is 29k/year with 50 CAD/day per diem. Both jobs are identical. Which one do you pick?

[mbav8r]

There was a company out East that used to do that, well a little more extreme, they paid 150/day per diems but a lower salary than similar jobs. Eventually the CRA stepped in and they had to reduce the per diems to the max allowed, an increase in salary ensued. The goal is to maximize tax free income to the max allowed by CRA and if you manage it correctly, ie; don't eat lavish meals three times a day, you will end up with more money in your account, call it income don't call it income, who cares but bottom line I can spend it how I see fit, like RRSPs or paying down my mortgage!

[Rockie]

Per diems are fixed expenses only, not salary. Sometimes you win with them if you're lucky and sometimes you lose.

But if I asked someone how much I was going to make and they said "X amount of $ plus per diems", it's not really what I asked. Per diems are a reimbursement of job related expenses that I expect regardless - it is not income.

Ah for f**** ****

You have 2 job offers:
one offers you 100k/year with 30 CAD/day per diem, the other one is 100k/year with 50 CAD/day per diem. Both jobs are identical. Which one do you pick?

That would depend on where I'm having to spend my per diems to eat, and that's the point isn't it? The 100k/year with 30 DAD/day might actually feed me in Winnipeg, whereas the 100k/year with 50 CAD/day won't in London. I'll take the job where I don't have to dip into my income to feed myself. Per Diems aren't part of your income, they are so you can sustain yourself when you're away on company business.

[mbav8r]

Per diems are fixed expenses only, not salary. Sometimes you win with them if you're lucky and sometimes you lose.

But if I asked someone how much I was going to make and they said "X amount of $ plus per diems", it's not really what I asked. Per diems are a reimbursement of job related expenses that I expect regardless - it is not income.

Ah for f**** ****

You have 2 job offers:
one offers you 100k/year with 30 CAD/day per diem, the other one is 100k/year with 50 CAD/day per diem. Both jobs are identical. Which one do you pick?

That would depend on where I'm having to spend my per diems to eat, and that's the point isn't it? The 100k/year with 30 DAD/day might actually feed me in Winnipeg, whereas the 100k/year with 50 CAD/day won't in London. I'll take the job where I don't have to dip into my income to feed myself. Per Diems aren't part of your income, they are so dyou can sustain yourself when you're away on company business.

So, if you are given more than you need to sustain yourself, what would you call the left over money? A bonus? Would you include bonus money as income? How about pension? If someone asks you how much you make, would you say, x amount plus pension and bonus?
Bottom line, you and I have to eat regardless of home or away, I'll take the higher per diems as tax free income over an increase in salary any day of the week, as long as they are equal, money in the bank is still money in the bank.
I get that it cost more to eat in London, do you not get an adjustment to your per diems based on local, for example when I have US flying and overnights I get 87 US, not 87 Cdn converted to US.

[Rockie]

So, if you are given more than you need to sustain yourself, what would you call the left over money? A bonus?

I call it left over per diem money I didn't have to spend feeding myself. Tomorrow I might need all of it, the next day it might not be enough.

It is not income. It is not pension. It is nontaxable company reimbursed food money for while I am away.

What would be ideal is if they reimbursed actual expenses with receipts, but that is way too cumbersome so they just give us a fixed standard amount that is supposed to average out to our actual expenses. Of course you could starve yourself and regard it as an income supplement but that isn't what it's for. Certainly the government doesn't regard it as such or they would tax it.

[mbav8r]

Rockie, I think you're just being stubborn at this point, how would reimbursement be ideal? That's a ridiculous statement! And not once have I ever starved myself, I even order the healthy more expensive choices like salmon as opposed to burger and fries from McDonald's, yet somehow I still have half the per diems left.
Would it surprise you to know that the per diems were negotiated higher instead of a bigger wage increase, right from the horses mouth higher tax free money. They had a set amount to spread around and it was felt that higher expense money was the way to go!
At home, my groceries average out to 10.00/day, if I spend 30/day on the road and I get 90, still ahead by 70, remember I have to eat anyway, it's cash in my account and the bills don't care where it comes from!
If you can't see the benefit of tax free expense money over and above what a normal person would spend, I can't argue this further with you.

[Rockie]

Rockie, I think you're just being stubborn at this point, how would reimbursement be ideal?

Because then you will never be out any money just to feed yourself on the road.

If you can't see the benefit of tax free expense money over and above what a normal person would spend,

It's tax free because it is per diem. Now, you might be one of those people who eat like a bird and can save a ton of the money you get for expenses, but not everybody can be like you. Nor does everybody want to be. It's not being stubborn, it's being realistic. Did you know Revenue Canada would have a real problem if they thought your employer was goosing your wages with nontaxable money? That's why it is foolish to expend bargaining capital on anything beyond true realistic per diem, and believe me your employer knows it which is why they don't go down that road.

[mbav8r]

Because then you will never be out any money just to feed yourself on the road

Ok, sure but what would prevent someone from ordering the most expensive item on the menu every time. If you're out money from eating on the road, you're doing something wrong, perhaps you are going to too many fine dining restaurants.

Now, you might be one of those people who eat like a bird and can save a ton of the money you get for expenses

I can assure you at 280 lbs, I do not eat like a bird. On the road I eat the same as if I'm at home, so to do that I prepare and bring some with me and only eat a restaurant meal once a day, this is not an effort to save money, it's about controlling what's in my food. At home I go to an expensive restaurant once in awhile, so why would I do that on the road. I have a very hard time spending 9.00 on a beer when I know at home I can have the same beer from my fridge for 2.00, so I have water, sure I could order the beer and sometimes I do, but to me I don't enjoy being ripped off so as a consumer, I protest with my wallet. Same reason I won't buy the 20.00 burger and 3 fries from the hotel restaurant, I'll venture out and find a reasonable meal at a reasonable price.

That's why it is foolish to expend bargaining capital on anything beyond true realistic per diem

Which is why I said they set it to the max the CRA allows and the dollar amount is tied to the CRA limit, can't see that being a problem

[The Hammer]

CRA is now collecting millions in extra taxes in treating airport parking for employees as a taxable benefit. Hard to feel that collecting per diems at or less than the rate of Federal employees is somehow an unjustifiable perquisite of the job.

Perhaps some of the commentators here should try living out of a suitcase 16-18 days per month every month and see how they like it.

Every time I see a per diems thread it inevitably becomes the dumbest thread.

16-18 days out of a suitcase?? I'd say you have a pretty shitty job/contract and/or likely choose to commute. I'd also like to point out that there are many other non airline professions that do this, you know those people in J class that pay all of our wages, and often never have the option to bid single day pairings. It's called a job and lots of them do it for less money and definitely less time off than flight crew. Flight crew have a ridiculous amount of time off and vacation once they make it to Jazz/AC/WJ and hopefully Encore soon too.

I'm embarrassed at how much time off I have compared to my siblings and where my kids have been on vacation compared to their cousins. I don't work any harder than them and my responsibilities aren't any greater than my siblings. I show up reasonably prepared, I don't have to think about what I'm wearing to work each day and I have to be sober.

[Ypilot]

I'm embarrassed at how much time off I have compared to my siblings and where my kids have been on vacation compared to their cousins. I don't work any harder than them and my responsibilities aren't any greater than my siblings. I show up reasonably prepared, I don't have to think about what I'm wearing to work each day and I have to be sober.

Maybe you didn't do enough navajo and 40$ perdiems that would buy you disgusting sandwitches or macdonald.
I don't know for your days off, but some of mine are used to recover from long duty days.

[bobcaygeon]

I'm embarrassed at how much time off I have compared to my siblings and where my kids have been on vacation compared to their cousins. I don't work any harder than them and my responsibilities aren't any greater than my siblings. I show up reasonably prepared, I don't have to think about what I'm wearing to work each day and I have to be sober.

Maybe you didn't do enough navajo and 40$ perdiems that would buy you disgusting sandwitches or macdonald.
I don't know for your days off, but some of mine are used to recover from long duty days.

Multi-day pairings in a navajo? I ate just as good on single days I did at my office job. I planned ahead and made a meal. Chicken curry tastes great the next day. Just like when I brought real food in a cooler with me and cooked when I went up north on rotation while my coworkers ate pizza pops from the Northern.

I had 5000 hrs when I went to the airlines, none were in the circuit, and if I didn't land on gravel, ice or water at least once a day it was not a normal day.

[Cessna 180]

I get 50/day per diems when I'm not at home base and it's generally more than enough. The only times it's not enough is when I buy overpriced hotel beer. We make sure we don't pick hotels without breakfast so that helps. Subway on the way to the airport for lunch is cheap. Not to mention I have hundreds of dollars of points at a private name hotel (still very very nice) in a city we stay at quite often that I can spend on food and drinks there. So then my meals become free and the per diem is a nice bonus for the bar on my days off. And I don't work for a 705 or big 704 company.

[TG]

I get 50/day per diems when I'm not at home base and it's generally more than enough. The only times it's not enough is when I buy overpriced hotel beer. We make sure we don't pick hotels without breakfast so that helps. Subway on the way to the airport for lunch is cheap. Not to mention I have hundreds of dollars of points at a private name hotel (still very very nice) in a city we stay at quite often that I can spend on food and drinks there. So then my meals become free and the per diem is a nice bonus for the bar on my days off. And I don't work for a 705 or big 704 company.

Very good, it seems you are getting too much.
You should forward this message to your management, they will be very happy to reduce your perdiem down to 30$.

22 if breakfast is included at the hotel

[Cessna 180]

I get 50/day per diems when I'm not at home base and it's generally more than enough. The only times it's not enough is when I buy overpriced hotel beer. We make sure we don't pick hotels without breakfast so that helps. Subway on the way to the airport for lunch is cheap. Not to mention I have hundreds of dollars of points at a private name hotel (still very very nice) in a city we stay at quite often that I can spend on food and drinks there. So then my meals become free and the per diem is a nice bonus for the bar on my days off. And I don't work for a 705 or big 704 company.

Very good, it seems you are getting too much.
You should forward this message to your management, they will be very happy to reduce your perdiem down to 30$.

22 if breakfast is included at the hotel

HAHA...