Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

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pelmet
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Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#1 Post by pelmet » Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:12 pm

Apparently there will be negotiations between us and the U.S.

The U.S. has a real shortage of pilots.

Negotiations go back and forth on much bigger issues.

Could a very minor thing such as letting Canadian pilots work for US carriers work.

Apparently, there is already something for Australian pilots for their free trade agreement known as an E3 visa.

More info here....

http://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zea ... onals.html

Contact your MP.
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Re: Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#2 Post by Rockie » Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:15 am

"We will follow two simple rules: Buy American and hire American"

President Donald J. Trump
January 20th, 2017


I believe Mr. Trump addressed your question numerous times in his inaugural speech.
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Re: Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#3 Post by watermeth » Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:20 am

what he said, and if Nafta negociations happen, transportation agreement may not be a the top of the list.
protectionism looks good when you sit on the right side of the fence.
we will see on which side canada sits.
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Re: Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#4 Post by Gino Under » Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:09 pm

Think about it.

NAFTA is a trade agreement on the cross border movement of goods and the applicable tariffs on those goods as agreed to by Canada, the US, and Mexico.
It has nothing to do with employment and immigration.

It allows a Canadian company to transfer an employee to its US or Mexican operation for a temporary period for (L-1B visa) 3 years. It does not allow or provide for that employee to work for any other employer in the US or provide access to the green card application process for the same purpose.
Meanwhile, our idiotic government allows temporary foreign pilots in Canada.
Canadian pilots wishing to work for Delta (or any) airlines have no pathway to employment via NAFTA.

Your question seems irrelevant to the existing NAFTA agreement or any (unlikely) renegotiated NAFTA agreement.

I think I'll go cry in my beer.

Gino
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Last edited by Gino Under on Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#5 Post by Marinth » Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:28 pm

Gino Under wrote:Think about it.
NAFTA is a trade agreement on the cross border movement of goods and the applicable tariffs on those goods as agreed to by Canada, the US, and Mexico.
It has nothing to do with employment and immigration.
Your question seems irrelevant to the existing NAFTA agreement or any (unlikely) renegotiated NAFTA agreement.

Gino
If it has nothing to do with employment and immigration then why does the TN list of occupations exist allowing for labor mobility and employment in NAFTA countries?

There is a chance you could see airline pilot appear on the TN list, however the protectionism that exists right now could hurt the chances of that happening.
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Re: Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#6 Post by JBI » Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:36 pm

From the US Department of State Website https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/ ... nafta.html

After you get past all the oil company advertising and the "Click to agree that Russia can read your e-mails" check box, you get the following information about the NAFTA TN Visa:

The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) created special economic and trade relationships for the United States, Canada, and Mexico. [...]

The nonimmigrant NAFTA Professional (TN) visa allows citizens of Canada and Mexico, as NAFTA professionals, to work in the United States in prearranged business activities for U.S. or foreign employers. Permanent residents of Canada and Mexico are not able to apply for TN visas to work as NAFTA professionals.


Now, what his Orangeness decides to do about NAFTA (and whether he's had his nap and/or bottle before thinking about the issue) remains to be seen. Could, in theory, the list of NAFTA professions be expanded? Yes. Will it - in my opinion, I wouldn't be counting on it.
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Re: Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#7 Post by Gino Under » Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:42 pm

The list of eligible occupations under NAFTA that can freely travel and or work in the US relates to those companies doing business in the US or Mexico.
The list of eligible occupations for immigration purposes is not necessarily the same as the list under NAFTA and is likely to be more comprehensive (not sure).
Read Chapter 16 of NAFTA and I think you'll find your answer.

Gino
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Re: Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#8 Post by JBI » Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:15 pm

I'm not sure I agree or I may be misunderstanding your position.

I currently have an L2 Visa because my wife is an inter-company transferee under section 1603-C. She was transferred from the Canadian company to its sister-American company to work on a project in the US.

However, because I have a law degree, in theory, I would be eligible to obtain an TN Visa (regardless of my wife's status) and go practice law in the US (if I had been offered a job by a US firm for a period of 3 years or less - but renewable). That is outlined in section 1603-D with the list of professions in Appendix 1603.D.1. I have a few friends who have or are doing this. They have a professional degree, apply for US firms and then work in the US on their TN Visa. The firms do not have any Canadian connections.

So, in theory, if the countries agreed to list Pilot on the list of accepted professions, a Canadian pilot could then get offered a job in the US (provided they could obtain the FAA medical and convert their licence).

Again, I think the likelihood of this happening is small. However, I also moved to the US because I thought there was no way people would be dumb enough to elect Trump as President...so, take it for what it's worth. :D
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Re: Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#9 Post by Gino Under » Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:17 pm

The L2 is for the accompanying spouse. She likely has an L1B.

I'm guessing your wife's employer processed her visa and not yours unless you're also working for that company. It seems your ability to work in the US would have more to do with your individual qualifications under their immigration requirements and not just the fact you're married to her.

I've looked at the INS website and it is extremely difficult for Canadians to immigrate to the US. Even their lottery is difficult for us to apply.

NAFTA simply governs tariffs on goods entering or exiting Canada, in other words, tariffs on goods entering or exiting the US. It also has a small section that addresses the movement of company personnel between countries and the activities they are allowed to undertake for business. It's fortunate you have a law degree.

When I got my visa my wife was not allowed to work nor were we eligible to immigrate or was I allowed to switch employers once there. Regretfully, the Mrs doesn't have a degree.

Maybe it works differently on a one to one basis?
Besides, I don't think pilot unions in the states will ever allow the pilot profession to be added to the list.
But we can dream.

Gino
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Re: Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#10 Post by JBI » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:37 am

Gino Under wrote:It seems your ability to work in the US would have more to do with your individual qualifications under their immigration requirements and not just the fact you're married to her.
Nope, the L2 is solely about being married to a spouse who has an L1B (or L1A). Makes no difference if I had a degree or not.

The NAFTA TN Visa (which I do not have) is available to anyone, regardless of whom they are married to IF they have the qualifications listed in section 1603-D of the NAFTA Agreement.
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Re: Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#11 Post by cdnpilot77 » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:45 am

Gino,

If NAFTA was strictly about goods and tariffs, why would occupations like hotel managers or social workers be on the list? The NAFTA list for TN visa has very little to do with the transfer of goods between NAFTA countries and more about the commodity of labour.
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Re: Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#12 Post by Gino Under » Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:07 am

JBI
That's what I said, the L2 is for someone accompanying their spouse. Regardless. That spouse usually isn't allowed to work in the US, but if that person has a degree they are looked at differently than a spouse without a degree. This is what was explained to me when I got my L-1B. Again, each case is assessed on its own merit.

cdnpilot77
The occupations listed, as I understand it, allow a Canadian employer to transfer employees to US branches.
i.e., A hotel manager with Holiday Inn can be transferred to a US holiday Inn. An Air Canada station manager can be transferred to an Air Canada station in the US.

I think the reality of a pilot shortage in the US along with the 1500 hour requirement is likely to change accessibility to the US for Cdn pilots.
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Re: Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#13 Post by JBI » Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:37 am

Hi Gino,

You are correct that the L2 doesn't permit me to work in the US. I would have to take the next step and get an Employment Authorization Document (EAD). I have not pursued getting one as I work in Canada and commute. I do have a US Social Security number though. The i-765 Application form to obtain an EAD simply acts as a check to make sure that the person who is a non-immigrant or non-citizen meets one of the appropriate visa categories to be eligible to work. L2 is one of these categories. It does not matter the education level of the person applying. In granting an EAD, people with degrees are not looked at differently.

Perhaps it has changed, but if you had an L1-B when you were in the US, your wife should have been able to work (after getting her L2 Visa, Social Security Number and Employment Authorization Document - all separate steps). This was the information provided to us by our immigration lawyers and although I did not specialize in immigration law myself, I verified this information independently through the US Department of Homeland Security.

I'm afraid you are incorrect with regard to the NAFTA list of professions though. A TN Visa is available to any professional on that list for employment (less than 3 years) at ANY employer in the US. A friend of mine is an accountant with a television company here in the US - she did not work for an associated company in Canada.

IF a person has the education/employment qualifications outlined on the List of Professions AND they get a job offer from a US employer to work in that profession in the US, then they are entitled to get a TN Visa regardless of their employer or employment status in Canada.

Sometimes employers will elect for their transferring employees who, even if they were eligible to obtain an L1-A (Executive Level) or L1-B (Skilled Worker) visa to instead get a TN Visa. The Application costs for the company are less expensive and the application process is less arduous (as an aside, my wife's education would not have qualified her for a TN Visa). Spouses of TN Visa holders are NOT permitted to work while in the US.

Thanks for the discussion - you got me looking through all the documents again just to confirm. However, with the amount of time I've spent on Homeland Securities website combined with the (Product of US!) Carrots that the confiscated from me at Newark the other day, I wonder if they'll still let me stay!
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Re: Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#14 Post by Gino Under » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:16 pm

I believe the TN visa is a link to NAFTA only as it relates to professions acceptable under NAFTA. I have no idea whether that list meets the same litmus test as those seeking a "green card".
Sorry, but that's all I got.

Gino
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Re: Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#15 Post by cdnpilot77 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:51 pm

As the TN visa is a non immigrant visa, there is no direct pathway to a green card. It is only a temporary visa. Although renewable, you need to change your application status, I'm sorry I don't have the time to check right now, but there is a multi step process that could take in the years, not months, to work towards a green card. That in itself is what I see as the stumbling block for the pilot profession to ever be added to NAFTA. They don't want temporary workers flying airplanes on a visa you can get with proof of a job and education at the time of crossing the border. They want to be able to properly vet applications through a visa program.
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Re: Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#16 Post by pelmet » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:41 pm

Gino Under wrote:Think about it.

NAFTA is a trade agreement on the cross border movement of goods and the applicable tariffs on those goods as agreed to by Canada, the US, and Mexico.
It has nothing to do with employment and immigration.

Your question seems irrelevant to the existing NAFTA agreement or any (unlikely) renegotiated NAFTA agreement.

Gino
Sounds like my question is very relevant.

Maybe something like the E3 visa for the Australians could be worked out.

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Re: Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#17 Post by Panama Jack » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:30 pm

Pelmet,

I totally agree with your observations. It is unfortunate that while the EU and the GCC region have much freer movement and immigration privileges for it's citizens, the Canada/US one doesn't even come close and the trade agreement addresses products and companies more than people.

Having said that, I have no hopes that any advances in this area will happen during the current Administration. I believe we are at the beginning of a very long 4-8 lost years.
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Re: Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#18 Post by EPR » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:42 am

There are many Canadian Nurses and Doctors working in the States and have been for a long time.
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Re: Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#19 Post by mbav8r » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:28 pm

EPR wrote:There are many Canadian Nurses and Doctors working in the States and have been for a long time.
Have you watching the news, if it means US citizens are unemployed in these positions, Trump will find a way to send them packing. Obviously if there are more vacancies than qualified US citizens, it won't change.
Same for pilots, I wouldn't put it Trump to rescind the 1500 hr rule, he will say it's "dumb" and will change it "bigly"
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Re: Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#20 Post by altiplano » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:00 pm

I don't know what will happen... but...

There was a time but that long ago that US legacy carriers set up in YYZ and pitched guys going to the parking lot after work with jobs and green cards...

Delta alone, ~13000+ pilots, will see a roughly 50% reach mandatory retirement in the next 10 years... United and American are similar... Not sure where Southwest fits...

US regionals have gone from the depths of crap wawcon to USD$60K 1st year pay plus $10K signing bonuses...

It may be a longshot, but I wouldn't outright rule it out... If they need guys they will get guys and opening to Canadians would be more palatable thanks opening the flood gates outright - plus it would be good for wawcon here if AC, WS, regionals had to start competing to keep us here...

Pay at all those airlines dwarfs the best pay in Canada not even factoring currency exchange.
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Re: Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#21 Post by EPR » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:51 pm

mbav8r wrote:Have you watching the news, if it means US citizens are unemployed in these positions, Trump will find a way to send them packing. Obviously if there are more vacancies than qualified US citizens, it won't change.
Same for pilots, I wouldn't put it Trump to rescind the 1500 hr rule, he will say it's "dumb" and will change it "bigly
That's my whole point, the US is short staffed in said positions, just like they are now in Pilots!
I think it's only a matter of time until Canadian Pilots can work in the States.
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Re: Could NAFTA negotiations help pilots

#22 Post by mbav8r » Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:11 pm

I suppose you missed my point, if Trump rescinds the 1500 hour rule, how many pilots do you think will be available to fill the void at that point?
Of course this will be a short term solution and may not have any affect on the wages and impending shortage of pilots but it will be a stop gap until they can get some more puppy mills up and running.
I don't see Pilots being welcomed in, at least for quite a while, I hope I'm wrong because I'm quite tired of giving 60 cents of every dollar I make to the pigs at the trough and would love to live where winter means a bit of rain and not 4 feet of snow.
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