Sunwing Cadet Program

[pile_it]

http://m.therecord.com/news-story/71562 ... th-sunwing

Don't get me wrong, at 250 hours, I would have killed for an opportunity like this. However, the flight deck should be two experienced professionals working together, not an on-the-job training, teacher-student envirmonment. This is NOT an entry-level position, and the captain should be able to rely on his/her F/O to do their job safely and efficiently, both in normal line operations, and during a non-normal/emergencies.

I truly believe this will manifest itself with a high number of unstable approaches, runway overruns etc. In the long run scabbing the industry out of experienced, qualified pilots in the name of cost-savings, will come at the expense of a lower level of safety, and end up costing the company more.

A 250 hour wonder lacks the northern/arctic experience, as well as previous air taxi, commuter, and airline experience in both seats, in vastly different operating environments that a typical Canadian 737 FO has. It's what Canadian crews have to fall back on during an emergency where there may be no SOP or checklist...and have to rely on experience, crew coordination and good judgement.

[infiniteregulus]

Disapprove of this program on so many levels

[sampsonmcd]

This is done all over the world to varying degrees of success. Hell, the military does the same thing with little experience and it works out just fine. The question of whether or not these fresh CPL's will make suitable first officers is debatable, its down to the individual in my opinion.. but I see a much larger issue.

What is the incentive for Sunwing to do this? There are many qualified pilots with valuable experience that would be more then happy to fly a 737. So why would Sunwing recruit cadets? I dont want to belittle the young people who were given this opportunity, most of us would have been jumping for joy to fly a 705 as a first job. I have to wonder though, what is the financial arrangement here? Who is paying for the training? What kind of salary are the cadets receiving?

To me this seems very odd, and somewhat confusing. They rarely put out ads for hiring in general, and now they have such a pilot demand that they skip over the piles of resumes on their desk?? Strange...

I'll never understand the practices of some companies in this country.

[rxl]

This is done all over the world to varying degrees of success. Hell, the military does the same thing with little experience and it works out just fine. The question of whether or not these fresh CPL's will make suitable first officers is debatable, its down to the individual in my opinion.. but I see a much larger issue.

What is the incentive for Sunwing to do this? There are many qualified pilots with valuable experience that would be more then happy to fly a 737. So why would Sunwing recruit cadets? I dont want to belittle the young people who were given this opportunity, most of us would have been jumping for joy to fly a 705 as a first job. I have to wonder though, what is the financial arrangement here? Who is paying for the training? What kind of salary are the cadets receiving?

To me this seems very odd, and somewhat confusing. They rarely put out ads for hiring in general, and now they have such a pilot demand that they skip over the piles of resumes on their desk?? Strange...

I'll never understand the practices of some companies in this country.

I think it's pretty obvious. It's all about the bottom line.

[Optimus Primer]

This isn't any different from what Jazz has done for the past 10 years. They have taken a record number of fresh grads from several flight colleges. This will only become more widespread unless TC does what the FAA did and make an ATPL a requirement for 704/705 FOs (like it should be).

But we know that won't happen until a serious accident happens with one of these grads in the flight deck.

[hithere]

So you are talking about the Colgan crash and how it "forced" the FAA to change the minimum requirements to 1500hrs to be an FO on a >19 seat operator. Here is the rub...that crash was not caused by inexperience, but rather fatigue because the crew(including the Capt) was so bloody underpaid that they were forced to live far away from their crew base(large city with high real estate/rental prices) that they slept the night before their duty in the crew room(Capt) or in the jumpseat of an overnight cargo flight(FO). The majority of the "college" kids that I fly with at Jazz are young enough that they still live at home with their parents in YYZ or YUL. They are well rested when they show up for work.
Like ALPA says, there is no pilot shortage, just a pilot pay shortage. However the race to the bottom continues unabated and that is what will cause an accident, not inexperience.

[DanWEC]

I would assume the incentive for Sunwing is to be able to pay the cadet FO commensurate with experience.

[rudder]

The SW cadets are paid as per the CBA just as any new-hire is paid. I think that SW just want to have their foot in the door in the future when the supply of pilots does dry up.

Is this de facto ab initio training on a Boeing? Absolutely. And SW already has one scraped 737 tail to show for it.

[hithere]

Exactly

[lonewolf]

I do no agree with this program for so many reasons

Did not take long for one of these kids to scrape a tail…

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/c ... d2016O3158

[ant_321]

I would assume the incentive for Sunwing is to be able to pay the cadet FO commensurate with experience.

The Cadets are on the same pay scale as everyone else. I, along with every other line pilot i've talked to, disagree with the cadet program and were under the impression that it wouldn't be continued. Why it is being continued I don't know. That is well above my pay grade.

[DanWEC]

Really? So really what would be the motivation behind the program? From a business standpoint, I'm at a bit of a loss to figure why a company would rather put inexperienced pilots in the seat over experienced ones for the same pay. Insurance underwriters must be looking at their agreements as well.

[AuxBatOn]

Did not take long for one of these kids to scrape a tail…

You know for a fact that it was someone from the cadet program?

[fish4life]

I think the biggest problem is in Europe from day one these cadets are trained to fly an airliner and these kids going to Sunwing weren't trained to the same standard. Lets be honest ab intio training in Canada is a lower quality / standard than how it seems in Europe because it is expected that people will learn in small airplanes and gain experience. It would also be useless in Canada to do a bunch of Airbus sim training then throw a guy in a Navajo.

[ahramin]

I'm not surprised at the rhetoric in this thread but I am dissapointed. Words like scab have no place in this discussion. If you don't agree with hiring 200 hour pilots don't hire them. If you aren't in a hiring position, bring your concerns up with your chief pilot. I see some arguments here for and against having 200 hour pilots in the flight deck of airliners and while it's great to have a productive discussion about it lets leave the rhetoric and old boys club horseshit behind.

These 200 hour pilots are pilots. They are our colleagues and have the experience that both their employer and Transport Canada require. I note that pile_it states "The flight deck should be two experienced professionals working together, not an on-the-job training, teacher-student envirmonment [sic]". I don't know about anyone else here, but the first time I was in the right seat, it was on the job training. In fact every time I was in the right seat of a new aircraft it was on the job training. I see that someone claims that one of these pilots had a tail strike. If true, what does it lead us to conclude? If the conclusion is that hiring 200 hour pilots is a bad idea, then how many hours does it take to be immune from tail strikes? From going off the side or end of the runway? If the AC pilots that had a hard landing in Halifax had 10 000 hours each, does that now mean we shouldn't hire 10 000 hour pilots because they don't have enough experience not to crash an airplane?

Obviously a 5000 hour pilot should come with more skills and experience and require less training and supervision than a 200 hour one. Lets hope Sunwing's Chief Pilot realizes that and has put the appropriate training and operational procedures in place.

[Canadian Skyhawk]

I don't begrudge these new pilots - although I did it the old fashioned way, hauling mail bags in a beat up Navajo up North before ever touching a turboprop, let alone a jet.

The passenger flying in the back is the one who is ultimately footing the bill and deciding to fly Sunwing over rouge/Transat/etc. I am wondering what that passenger would choose if he had the choice between two 737 flights to Cancun: Sunwing for $499 with a 5000 hour captain and a 200 hour FO fresh out of flying school or Transat for $529 with a 5000 hour captain and a 4000 hour FO. Unfortunately, the flying public is unaware that they have this choice to make. Someone should inform them.

While the American regulation forcing all airline pilots to have ATPLs does not solve all the issues (and yes, I know, 10,000 hour pilots do have accidents), I believe it is a step in the right direction for aviation safety. Despite the fact that Canadians love to call the Americans over their capitalist system run amok, in this case safety trumped airline profits. Not so in Canada.

[plhought]

A pilot's licence is a licence to learn; just as much as it is a licence to operate an airplane.

[infiniteregulus]

I think a big qualm is the fact that most cadet programs deem them as equal to high time FOs (both in pay and status) and are put on the line as "fully qualified" pilots and left to regular line Captains. This forces regular Captains with the burden of teaching when they are not in the training department nor have any desire to do so. Yes there is always a level of teaching and mentorship in any cockpit, but I absolutely guarantee a 200 hour pilot DOES NOT have the valuable basic experience, all of which must be taught to them. Icing, thunderstorms, malfunctions, comfort/confidence, full capabilities/limitations of aircraft, airline lifestyle, general life experience (for the really young ones), etc...all of which is learnt through time. And when things go wrong, it's entirely left on the Captain's shoulders. I don't think these programs will disappear anytime soon, but if companies want them, they need to be implementing them better with full on training programs and not dumping it on the backs of their employees.

[sanjet]

I'm not surprised at the rhetoric in this thread but I am dissapointed. Words like scab have no place in this discussion. If you don't agree with hiring 200 hour pilots don't hire them. If you aren't in a hiring position, bring your concerns up with your chief pilot. I see some arguments here for and against having 200 hour pilots in the flight deck of airliners and while it's great to have a productive discussion about it lets leave the rhetoric and old boys club horseshit behind.

These 200 hour pilots are pilots. They are our colleagues and have the experience that both their employer and Transport Canada require.

That is the problem with pilots in Canada. Constant bashing but nothing productive nor any solutions given. I have travelled the world and never seen such hostility against each other as compared to here.

Without a certified college or united front to ensure all pilots are employed and treated with a certain standard, this will only continue.

[pilotguy2017]

It's a total crock but it doesn't surprise me. Seems to be a special kind of pilot that Sunwing tends to hire or sponsor.