Sunwing Cadet Program

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telex
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#26 Post by telex » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:26 pm

Due to the path I took I'm extremely comfortable in lots of situations I wouldn't have been comfortable in if I went straight into a 37.
Can you give an example?
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#27 Post by altiplano » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:26 pm

I'm glad to see Sunwing hiring more Canadians.

What a great opportunity for these kids.

I absolutely would have killed for a 737 job out of school. In fact I would have killed for any 705/jet job for the 10 years and thousands of hours of slogging it took to get one...

Different times now though...

Sunwing could no doubt get more experience, but by hiring these guys they know they have them... They aren't competitive to go anywhere for at least several years... if they hired the 5000hour Beech captain or Dash driver they know they got nothing on them... Off to China, or westjet, or whatever as soon as the deal looks better...

These kids aren't as good now as an experienced driver, then again I've seen multi thousand hour guys coming from wherever into my airline and they are almost deer in the headlights...

These kids aren't scabs, they're getting hired and joining the union. You don't like the hiring policy send them a letter, lobby the government - don't hate the player, hate the game...
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#28 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:42 am

Scabs? What is wrong with you?
These kids get an airline job with a fresh CPL and make the same amount as a "regular " FO and you are pissed about it?
If they were throwing bags as a "pilot in waiting" you would complain that they are bringing down the industry! So what exactly do you want them to do for their first job? Exactly what you did?
I think you are pissed because Sunwing didn't hire you instead of them!
The pettiness and jealousy in Canadian aviation is disgusting.
You should be happy for them and happy that they are not TFWs.
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#29 Post by skypirate88 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:14 am

altiplano wrote:
Sunwing could no doubt get more experience, but by hiring these guys they know they have them... They aren't competitive to go anywhere for at least several years... if they hired the 5000hour Beech captain or Dash driver they know they got nothing on them... Off to China, or westjet, or whatever as soon as the deal looks better...
I think this is a large motivating factor for this program. I don't have any inside information, but I believe this is likely the same reason Jazz has so many agreements with colleges.

The folks awarded these spots are going to be in a little trouble in a few years without proper planning. I don't think the PICUS program allows for them to log enough time to meet the ATPL PIC requirements. They are going to have to find a side job to get the time, or pay for it.
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#30 Post by justwork » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:07 pm

200 hour FO's in the right seat of 737, pretty standard globally. It would be nice if they hired experienced pilots but it's obviously not financially sound. I wonder how they, or any operator, find themselves in a position where hiring someone with 200TT is the right move. Ahhh, I think I know. Pilot A has 3000 hours flying a beech or pilatus or what ever, comes to sunwing for a year then is off to WJ or AC. Pilot B has 200 hours and is basically stuck, for lack of better words, with Sunwing for a decade. Smart move on Sunwing, cadet programs and training bonds... A lot of pilots that are sitting at AC and WJ did this to the industry, Canadian pilots will do anything to claw their way into a mainline. It's a fact. Accept the consequences and carry on. I feel bad for all the Pilatus guys trying to get on at sunwing for a couple seasons to pad their logbook for AC or WJ.

:drinkers:
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#31 Post by atphat » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:51 pm

They are hardly scabs. They had an opportunity and they took it. As altiplano says. Don't hate the player. Good on them. Just cause I had to work the docks doesn't mean everyone has to. People hating on these newbies just sound jealous. Get over it.
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#32 Post by sstaurus » Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:02 am

Just playing devil's advocate here, but I'm surprised they haven't tried a promissory note of some kind to keep people from jumping ship, rather than hiring cadets.... (Don't shoot me)
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#33 Post by mbav8r » Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:13 am

I only have a few concerns, the main one being will a low time pilot have the confidence to speak up if they see the Captain doing something they shouldn't, like showing up to work under the influence of alcohol!
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#34 Post by av8ts » Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:26 am

I think that will depend on the "culture" at the airline
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#35 Post by rudder » Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:43 pm

sstaurus wrote:Just playing devil's advocate here, but I'm surprised they haven't tried a promissory note of some kind to keep people from jumping ship, rather than hiring cadets.... (Don't shoot me)
At SW, full-time pilot hires sign a training bond. Seasonal pilot hires do not.
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#36 Post by Oxi » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:10 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:
lonewolf wrote:
Did not take long for one of these kids to scrape a tail…
You know for a fact that it was someone from the cadet program?

Yes this happened and it was a cadet!
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#37 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:40 pm

Friend of mine was PIC on a Canada 3000 757. FO was an F-18 pilot. On his leg, he scraped the tail so it happens to people other than just cadets.
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#38 Post by Old fella » Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:17 pm

At my age"gettin your tail" is more of an issue than"scraping the tail". I know, brilliant commentary but that's me...................

:smt040
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#39 Post by complexintentions » Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:35 pm

If cadet pilots are the reason for incidents, what are the excuses for all the experienced guys having them?

It's amusing to watch the typical Canadian culture of envy that someone else is getting an opportunity they didn't have available to them. Sad, predictable, but kind of funny.

Ab initio pilots are used world-wide. There are talented ones, and there are less-so. Just like the folks that took a GA or military path to the airlines.

It's one's right to not like it. But trying to make it sound like they're some threat to safety because they didn't shoot an NDB approach in Norman Wells in some POS is just nonsense. And attempting to highlight an incident allegedly caused by a cadet pilot to try and prove something is a bit sick - the industry eating its young, as usual. Be proud.

Every path has its pros and cons. I'm glad I had to take the route I did, getting a chance to fly a wide variety of aircraft and operations. I think cadet pilots miss out on a great deal of what flying (and life) has to offer, in both good and bad ways. But if someone had offered me the right seat of a Boeing as a first job do you think I'd have turned it down?
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#40 Post by Rockie » Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:32 am

Low time military pilots and European cadet programs are often correctly cited as proof that it can be done. What's not often mentioned is that there is in place at both an initial training, and more importantly a continuing training ang monitoring program to make up for lack of experience. Speaking for the military at least the training never actually stops even once you're qualified.

I'd be interested in hearing what kind of initial training, ongoing training and line monitoring Sunwing has implemented.
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#41 Post by Eric Janson » Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:00 pm

Rockie wrote:Low time military pilots and European cadet programs are often correctly cited as proof that it can be done. What's not often mentioned is that there is in place at both an initial training, and more importantly a continuing training ang monitoring program to make up for lack of experience. Speaking for the military at least the training never actually stops even once you're qualified.
I've flown with plenty of low time Pilots including cadets at a South Asian Flag Carrier.

Cadets basically did a 2 year program with a number of additional Sim sessions and a lot of extra line training before being released. I used to get them after they were released from Line Training. They knew the books inside out but needed some help with the practical side of flying - not really a surprise.

I never had to take control from any of them and I never had a "dual input" event. I had to issue verbal commands to stop a rapidly deteriorating situation a few times but that's as bad is it got.

In Europe I had a 19 year old F/O on the 757 who was straight out of flying school. Very sharp - you only had to tell him once. Ironically he could fly the 757 across the Atlantic but was too young to rent a car in Canada!


I have to say I don't like the title of this thread or the tone of some of the posts.

This thread stays but the Trump Election thread (one of the best on here for a long time imho) was deleted.

I don't get it - everyone was up in arms about TFW's and now Canadian citizens are being hired it's still not ok? WTF?
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#42 Post by Gino Under » Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:27 pm

Sunwing may be seeing signs of a pilot shortage because Canadian pilots now know the M O of this outfit and are starting to avoid it.
They reap what they sow.

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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#43 Post by complexintentions » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:41 pm

Sunwing may be seeing signs of a pilot shortage because Canadian pilots now know the M O of this outfit and are starting to avoid it.
What do you mean the MO? The TFW's? If that were true, wouldn't "avoiding" Sunwing by not applying exacerbate the problem by giving them more grounds to bring in more TFW's?

I highly doubt Sunwing is short of Canadian applicants eager to fly the NG. But definitely short of the rated pilots they'd prefer. So my guess is they've determined that if they can't bring in typed TWF's, and they have to train pilots themselves, they might as well use ab initio pilots which effectively bonds them to the employer.
I don't get it - everyone was up in arms about TFW's and now Canadian citizens are being hired it's still not ok? WTF?
Yeah, the thread title is pretty bad. "Scab" as it refers to labour disputes is a term historically reserved for someone who takes the work of a striking employee at a company during a strike - how is this remotely applicable here? Completely unfair to some young guys/girls probably pretty excited about a tremendous opportunity. I'm not a fan of Sunwing but to take it out on legitimately-hired new pilots is just brutal. Are the mods sleeping or is the use of slurs acceptable in some situations and not others?

As for the "WTF?", I'm telling ya, it's just simple, sour grapes, petty jealousy. It's ingrained in the cultural DNA.
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#44 Post by olddirtyloud » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:26 am

I heard after all the cancelled flights to CYSB earlier in the week, a "Cadet" was forced to drive a car from YYZ to YSB to position for the flight! If they can't tell them to F Off for something like that, you think they will stand up to a captain? CRM disaster waiting to happen....
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#45 Post by olddirtyloud » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:37 am


A Sunwing Boeing 737-86J (C-FWGH/SWG522) enroute from Puerto Vallarta, MX(MMPR) to Toronto, ON (CYYZ) initiated a missed approach to Runway 15L due to unstable approach and landed Runway 15L at 0722Z.


18/02/2017 07:00->
METAR CYYZ 180700Z 00000KT 15SM FEW240 M02/M04 A2967 RMK
CI2 SLP057=
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#46 Post by atphat » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:06 am

olddirtyloud wrote:
A Sunwing Boeing 737-86J (C-FWGH/SWG522) enroute from Puerto Vallarta, MX(MMPR) to Toronto, ON (CYYZ) initiated a missed approach to Runway 15L due to unstable approach and landed Runway 15L at 0722Z.


18/02/2017 07:00->
METAR CYYZ 180700Z 00000KT 15SM FEW240 M02/M04 A2967 RMK
CI2 SLP057=
And the point of this is??? Sounds like the crew did exactly what they were supposed to do.
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#47 Post by sanjet » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:27 am

olddirtyloud wrote:
A Sunwing Boeing 737-86J (C-FWGH/SWG522) enroute from Puerto Vallarta, MX(MMPR) to Toronto, ON (CYYZ) initiated a missed approach to Runway 15L due to unstable approach and landed Runway 15L at 0722Z.


18/02/2017 07:00->
METAR CYYZ 180700Z 00000KT 15SM FEW240 M02/M04 A2967 RMK
CI2 SLP057=
Isn't that a good thing they did a missed approach? I don't see the point.
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#48 Post by double-j » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:42 am

15L is notorious for tailwinds on final. Perhaps they couldn't meet stabilized approach criteria and executed the missed approach?

Good job I say.

Carry on with your pitchforks and torches!

JJ
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#49 Post by olddirtyloud » Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:09 pm

double-j wrote:15L is notorious for tailwinds on final. Perhaps they couldn't meet stabilized approach criteria and executed the missed approach?

Good job I say.

Carry on with your pitchforks and torches!

JJ
Perhaps the cadet couldn't keep a stabilized approach. A 200 hour pilot has 0 business being in the front end of a 737. Especially when they aren't allowed to land at certain airports. What if the captain has a heart attack? "Sorry folks, I'm not allowed to land here so we are all going to die.... "
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Re: Sunwing scabs the industry even further.

#50 Post by digits_ » Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:12 pm

olddirtyloud wrote:What if the captain has a heart attack? "Sorry folks, I'm not allowed to land here so we are all going to die.... "
"Sorry folks, due to a medical emergency on board, we are going to airport XXX instead. No worries, we will get you to your final destination as quickly as possible."
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