Controversy over US pilot shortage heats up

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big_sky
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Controversy over US pilot shortage heats up

#1 Post by big_sky » Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:58 pm

Interesting perspective of the situation down south, wonder if it will have any implications for Canada?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -u-434908/
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Re: Controversy over US pilot shortage heats up

#2 Post by marakii » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:52 pm

big_sky wrote:Interesting perspective of the situation down south, wonder if it will have any implications for Canada?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -u-434908/

But so many here in Canada are saying there is no pilot shortage here, so I don't see the same issue for now anyways. Maybe in 3 to 4 years from now.
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Re: Controversy over US pilot shortage heats up

#3 Post by Smitty » Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:03 am

ALPA says they support the regulated experience level...

The military says it's unnecessary...

The RAA complains the strain is hurting them...

And the teamsters object to the bonuses the regionals are offering as violating the CBAs....

Kinda messy and I think it's an issue north of the border too.

Up here the regionals and the smaller carriers are facing a challenging hiring environment and may have to make the choice of lower experience levels or parked assets. More carriers have approached the colleges to remedy the situation, but how do you ensure the newbies are properly prepared? Just my opinion, but the current licensing requirements don't fit the bill and bringing them up to standard will require regulatory change that would be many years in the making. Far too slow considering how imminent the problem is.
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Re: Controversy over US pilot shortage heats up

#4 Post by PRM1 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:34 am

There are programs out there that do a very good job of making students industry ready. As mischief as people like to bash on college kids here, Seneca offers this program to those who have completed their CPL M-IFR training to Transport standards at traditional flight schools. It serves as a finishing school more than anything else and it gives students the opportunity to learn how to effectively opperate in multi-crew operations. Check it out, http://www.senecacollege.ca/fulltime/APF.html
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Re: Controversy over US pilot shortage heats up

#5 Post by complexintentions » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:10 pm

Hmm. One post, and the first one is to promote a flight training organization. Not suspicious at all.

I've said it elsewhere. I'm sure the college programs turn out a decent pilot. Just a completely inexperienced one. Not a "bash", a fact. Certainly, a good foundation of basic training is a prerequisite. But the missing puzzle piece of successful ab initio programs aka "zero to hero" is the hiring airline to invest extensively in simulator and line training. This takes years, costs thousands, and as far as I'm aware, not in place whatsoever at any airline in Canada using, or contemplating using, low-time cadet pilots.

Let's face it, with few exceptions Canada is a place where employers are loathe to invest in the training of their employees - not just in aviation. Far cheaper to bring in experienced foreigners.
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Re: Controversy over US pilot shortage heats up

#6 Post by Smitty » Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:56 am

PRM1 wrote:There are programs out there that do a very good job of making students industry ready. As mischief as people like to bash on college kids here, Seneca offers this program to those who have completed their CPL M-IFR training to Transport standards at traditional flight schools. It serves as a finishing school more than anything else and it gives students the opportunity to learn how to effectively opperate in multi-crew operations. Check it out, http://www.senecacollege.ca/fulltime/APF.html
Having friends that teach at Seneca I have no doubt they can put out airline ready candidates. But graduating less than 40 a year is insufficient to meet the industies immediate needs. Even with the graduation rate at the other colleges there is still a shortfall considering the numbers AC and WJ need as well as the regionals and 3rd tier operators. Seneca may have to open a satellite training centre and maybe even contract 3rd parties to boost output.

We also need to incentivize current airline pilots to teach and mentor the up and comers. That and improve entry level terms and conditions.

The airlines will have to decide what is better...pay better or park planes.
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Re: Controversy over US pilot shortage heats up

#7 Post by Rowdy » Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:04 pm

Smitty wrote: Having friends that teach at Seneca I have no doubt they can put out airline ready candidates.
I have no doubt in my mind that they produce a quality product for the right seat of a Q400 or CRJ. The issue lies with the retirements creating open Left seats, as the current experienced pilot populace shrinks.. I don't know about you, but from my experience and perspective, it takes more than a year to tack on +2k in the logbook. No one should be cut loose in the left seat of any of the regional machines in the rocks with less than 2k. Bare Minimum! What are we averaging? 500-800hrs a year? Thats 3-4 years before a college grad is even in the ball park.

I know everyone says 'look at the rest of the world!' umm yeah.. those cadet programs are FAR more intensive and lengthy and preparatory for the right seat of a 737 than any of the canadian 'schools'. Even then, those cadets sit on the right for many years before going to the left seat. Why? Experience.
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Re: Controversy over US pilot shortage heats up

#8 Post by marakii » Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:19 pm

Rowdy wrote:
Smitty wrote: Having friends that teach at Seneca I have no doubt they can put out airline ready candidates.
I have no doubt in my mind that they produce a quality product for the right seat of a Q400 or CRJ. The issue lies with the retirements creating open Left seats, as the current experienced pilot populace shrinks.. I don't know about you, but from my experience and perspective, it takes more than a year to tack on +2k in the logbook. No one should be cut loose in the left seat of any of the regional machines in the rocks with less than 2k. Bare Minimum! What are we averaging? 500-800hrs a year? Thats 3-4 years before a college grad is even in the ball park.

I know everyone says 'look at the rest of the world!' umm yeah.. those cadet programs are FAR more intensive and lengthy and preparatory for the right seat of a 737 than any of the canadian 'schools'. Even then, those cadets sit on the right for many years before going to the left seat. Why? Experience.
100% true, in Europe they sit on the right seat for a while. So are you saying we will see inexperienced captains soon enough in Canada?
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Re: Controversy over US pilot shortage heats up

#9 Post by Soar » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:04 pm

I'm sure many of them are excellent pilots, and even better future Captains, but I have to completely disagree with that statement.

I can see a huge difference (in general) between low time pilots and more seasoned pilots. In my part of the world, when I flew narrow body airbus, but also even now on the wide body. Even the basic stick and rudder skills are obviously more apparent on guys/gals with 10000h that came from dash 8s as Captains (for example) vs 3000h guys that started right seat on a jet. It's night and day for the most part.

Again, to reiterate, I'm sure they're fantastic schools, but there really is no substitute for on-the-line experience, it's really that simple. There's a HUGE difference between perceived proficiency and actual proficiency - many times your ego on getting the first jet job being part of that, at least for some individuals...

The more you know, the more you release how little you knew.
PRM1 wrote:There are programs out there that do a very good job of making students industry ready. As mischief as people like to bash on college kids here, Seneca offers this program to those who have completed their CPL M-IFR training to Transport standards at traditional flight schools. It serves as a finishing school more than anything else and it gives students the opportunity to learn how to effectively opperate in multi-crew operations. Check it out, http://www.senecacollege.ca/fulltime/APF.html
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Re: Controversy over US pilot shortage heats up

#10 Post by PRM1 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:18 pm

Smitty wrote:
PRM1 wrote:There are programs out there that do a very good job of making students industry ready. As mischief as people like to bash on college kids here, Seneca offers this program to those who have completed their CPL M-IFR training to Transport standards at traditional flight schools. It serves as a finishing school more than anything else and it gives students the opportunity to learn how to effectively opperate in multi-crew operations. Check it out, http://www.senecacollege.ca/fulltime/APF.html
Having friends that teach at Seneca I have no doubt they can put out airline ready candidates. But graduating less than 40 a year is insufficient to meet the industies immediate needs. Even with the graduation rate at the other colleges there is still a shortfall considering the numbers AC and WJ need as well as the regionals and 3rd tier operators. Seneca may have to open a satellite training centre and maybe even contract 3rd parties to boost output.

We also need to incentivize current airline pilots to teach and mentor the up and comers. That and improve entry level terms and conditions.

The airlines will have to decide what is better...pay better or park planes.
100% agree with this. Mentorship is a big part of what is needed in the future of this industry, not just in Canada, but world wide. With training becoming more and more expensive, mentorship can greatly increase the quality and effectiveness of this training. People helping people, what a novel concept :)
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Re: Controversy over US pilot shortage heats up

#11 Post by brooks » Tue May 16, 2017 9:12 pm

Things looking pretty tight down south.
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Re: Controversy over US pilot shortage heats up

#12 Post by BE20 Driver » Tue May 16, 2017 10:09 pm

I have even heard that there was a bill in the early stages of the US government that would allow foreign pilots to get fast tracked to green card status. Just think - most of us live within 200 km of the border, speak English and have a very similar aviation background. Pretty easy transition if you ask me. I ran into a Delta crew the other day. They have something like 600 retirements this year. That number goes up exponentially in the next few years.
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Re: Controversy over US pilot shortage heats up

#13 Post by North Shore » Wed May 17, 2017 8:22 am

BE20 Driver wrote:I have even heard that there was a bill in the early stages of the US government that would allow foreign pilots to get fast tracked to green card status. Just think - most of us live within 200 km of the border, speak English and have a very similar aviation background. Pretty easy transition if you ask me. I ran into a Delta crew the other day. They have something like 600 retirements this year. That number goes up exponentially in the next few years.
That rumour has been around for years, BE20. I heard it 25 years ago when I was first starting out flying..
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Re: Controversy over US pilot shortage heats up

#14 Post by FL320 » Wed May 17, 2017 10:26 am

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Re: Controversy over US pilot shortage heats up

#15 Post by brooks » Wed May 17, 2017 9:49 pm

North Shore wrote:
BE20 Driver wrote:I have even heard that there was a bill in the early stages of the US government that would allow foreign pilots to get fast tracked to green card status. Just think - most of us live within 200 km of the border, speak English and have a very similar aviation background. Pretty easy transition if you ask me. I ran into a Delta crew the other day. They have something like 600 retirements this year. That number goes up exponentially in the next few years.
That rumour has been around for years, BE20. I heard it 25 years ago when I was first starting out flying..
I am pretty sure there was no ads like that 15-20 years ago. Times are changing.
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Re: Controversy over US pilot shortage heats up

#16 Post by BE20 Driver » Wed May 17, 2017 10:58 pm

If there is an actual bill in the states I can't find it. Maybe you kids with better googling skills than me can actually find info on it.

If you're flying a 737 in Canada, I wouldn't leave here for a US regional. A mainline carrier on the other hand...
I was offered a green card at a regional a few years back. It isn't well advertised but they'll do it.
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Re: Controversy over US pilot shortage heats up

#17 Post by co-joe » Thu May 18, 2017 5:57 pm

Even if Jazz and Encore hired 250 hour pilots the pool would always be the people who were going to learn to fly anyway. Nobody in their right mind would drop the cash required to learn to fly for the salaries being offered if they weren't already infected with the bug. If you want to cure the coming shortage you need to offer more salary than Tim Hortons does.
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Re: Controversy over US pilot shortage heats up

#18 Post by IKEA_Monkey » Thu May 18, 2017 6:16 pm

Why bother spending all that money and time becoming a pilot? Just work as a YYC LINK driver instead.

http://concordeairportservices.com/Care ... itions.pdf

Their starting wage is more than an Encore FO! I wonder if their group will get flow onto the ULCC? lol
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Re: Controversy over US pilot shortage heats up

#19 Post by Galatica » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:36 pm

The only way to attract young people to even think about aviation as career nowadays is when the airlines start paying Pilots more than what he or she could make by driving a truck for example. Just passion for aviation may not cut it realistically with the current first year salaries that are being paid now. After all it is a highly responsible job and Pilots deserve better.
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