Flair buys Newleaf

Discuss topics relating to airlines.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

Message
Author
Air.Field
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:52 am

Flair buys Newleaf

#1 Post by Air.Field » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:11 am

---------- ADS -----------

AllClutch
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 187
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:10 pm

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#2 Post by AllClutch » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:40 am

I bet newleaf owed flair a lot of cash.
I wonder if you will see Jim Scott come in to steer the ship?
---------- ADS -----------

fish4life
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1373
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#3 Post by fish4life » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:15 pm

I've got a feeling "purchasing" the asssests meant they owed us a bunch of money so we confiscated the business.
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
sanjet
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 761
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:54 am

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#4 Post by sanjet » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:08 pm

All that talk about foreign investors wanting in last year and would revolutionize air travel in Canada....
---------- ADS -----------

crazyaviator
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 671
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:52 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#5 Post by crazyaviator » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:49 pm

Air Canada and Westjet need to put these fly-by-nighters out of business before they totally piss off the travelling public or crash one of their A/C into the side of a mountain! When Westjet started, they at least stuck to their guns and delivered a good product!!
---------- ADS -----------

GRK2
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:04 am

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#6 Post by GRK2 » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:38 am

Put them out of business? Glad to see that fair competition lives in your world. Fly into a mountain? Seriously... What an arrogant and ignorant comment! Just who do you think you are? The numbers don't lie. Over a quarter of a million passengers and over 2000 flights so far. Don't see any incidents or accident do you? I know many of the pilots and crews at Flair and to wish these great and highly skilled people failure is wrong in so many ways. This is part of the ever growing "screw you, I deserve better than you" sub culture I see in Canada. As long as you're OK then the rest of us who work in the business can go fornicate. Now there's a great attitude and way of passing it forward for you. I've been in the business of aviation longer than I want to think and it never changes for the better, it only gets worse. How about wishing someone fair skies and good luck for a change? The more people that get to work and (for most) realise a dream, the better off this industry will be. It's a little poisonous at times and if I read you correctly you're not contributing much to growing aviation and cleaning it up. The guy on the WS forum who hates ALPA and anyone in it is another great contributor to the betterment. Try to be a bigger person, try to make this a better business by supporting it and others who make a living in it. Think what might happen if you failed, lost a medical or were laid off because your company shut down. Or simply just grow the hell up. Your choice. Personally I wish them all the fortune they deserve and a safe and fair working environment.
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Old fella
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1659
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#7 Post by Old fella » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:42 am

Guess the final arbiter will folks like us- the travelling public. If the service provided meets our needs and more to the point, dependable well then survival is a good bet. If not, then we will go elsewhere and the business plan for the new entry will be in jeopardy.
---------- ADS -----------

crazyaviator
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 671
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:52 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#8 Post by crazyaviator » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:55 am

Two discounted carriers, SkyGreece and CanJet, ceased operations within days of each other last summer, joining other failed ventures such as JetsGo, Zoom Airways, Roots Air and VistaJet.
My concern is with the travelling public! There needs to be safeguards, regardless of pricing, that these start-ups meet their obligations to deliver a product and on time! Westjet was a serious
start-up competitor and was not even in the same league as new leaf and KFC

I worked on contract for royal airlines for 3 months before they went bust,,,what a scary place in maintenance that was,,,Left at the end of the term even though they asked me to stay. A fella got sucked into a B737 engine at that time ( vanes stopped him )
---------- ADS -----------

co-joe
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3101
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#9 Post by co-joe » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:44 pm

crazyaviator wrote:Air Canada and Westjet need to put these fly-by-nighters out of business before they totally piss off the travelling public or crash one of their A/C into the side of a mountain! When Westjet started, they at least stuck to their guns and delivered a good product!!
The fear among us is exactly that. That AC and WJ will lower the bar even further to prevent ULCC's from gaining market share. How will they do that? Aircaft costs are fixed, fuel is fixed, landing fees, building leases/ mortgages, everything is a fixed cost with only small areas of savings possible.

So what isn't a fixed cost you ask? Wages. Think about that. Take all the time you need. Pilots, FA's, Engineers, ramp staff, check in counter staff, office staff will bear the weight of the cost cutting. This is one more step in the race to the bottom.
---------- ADS -----------

GRK2
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:04 am

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#10 Post by GRK2 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:12 am

You want to compare KFC mtce with ROYAL? HAhahahahahahahahahahahahaha...that's rich my friend. I almost choked on my poutine! Barry against M Leblanc? You need to go back and learn a little Canadian aviation history...you might also learn the story about WS being told to wait until all their AOC ducks were in a row (Mtce. was one reason) before they went to work. They did end up with a mostly good product, but now it seems they have had a change in the way they do business...Cookie cutter airline, same as the rest! So it seems that Flair has a good strong backing, good strong maintenance,a route structure, a business plan (Leblanc's plan was to fleece all his employees for as much as he could get, as WELL as the travelling public...) and pays more than you give them credit for.
---------- ADS -----------

goingnowherefast
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 798
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#11 Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:54 am

co-joe wrote:The fear among us is exactly that. That AC and WJ will lower the bar even further to prevent ULCC's from gaining market share. How will they do that? Aircaft costs are fixed, fuel is fixed, landing fees, building leases/ mortgages, everything is a fixed cost with only small areas of savings possible.

So what isn't a fixed cost you ask? Wages. Think about that. Take all the time you need. Pilots, FA's, Engineers, ramp staff, check in counter staff, office staff will bear the weight of the cost cutting. This is one more step in the race to the bottom.
Perks aren't fixed costs either. That plastic cup of water and the pretzels go away, carry-on bag costs money now, paper boarding pass costs another $4, no entertainment system, etc. Plus they'll cram as many people into the plane as legally possible, so you'll be chewing on your knees and pressed up against that medium sized person seated beside you. Then they could over-utilise the airframes, and the airline will be constantly be running late. But hey, if the Jonny Q. Public wants that ticket for $50 cheaper, they can be herded like cattle, uncomfortable and late. It's a free market.

Right now is a great time for pilots that a ULCC is trying to get started. They'll have to pay decent salaries to attract flight crews. Otherwise, the planes won't fly.
---------- ADS -----------

crazyaviator
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 671
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:52 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#12 Post by crazyaviator » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:30 am

Right now is a great time for pilots that a ULCC is trying to get started. They'll have to pay decent salaries to attract flight crews. Otherwise, the planes won't fly.
As is often the case, Pilots do not give a rats ass about anyone else other than themselves Pathetic !!!
---------- ADS -----------

flyinhigh
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2314
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:42 pm
Location: my couch

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#13 Post by flyinhigh » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:31 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Perks aren't fixed costs either. That plastic cup of water and the pretzels go away, carry-on bag costs money now, paper boarding pass costs another $4, no entertainment system, etc. Plus they'll cram as many people into the plane as legally possible, so you'll be chewing on your knees and pressed up against that medium sized person seated beside you. Then they could over-utilise the airframes, and the airline will be constantly be running late. But hey, if the Jonny Q. Public wants that ticket for $50 cheaper, they can be herded like cattle, uncomfortable and late. It's a free market.

Right now is a great time for pilots that a ULCC is trying to get started. They'll have to pay decent salaries to attract flight crews. Otherwise, the planes won't fly.

Hate to say it, but I took new leaf when it started and saved a lot more than $50. WJ and AC were 2500 to go to Victoria. New leaf was $1030. For a 2 hour flight, do you really need all the perks, not me. Obviously the plan was flawed from the get go, however I do wish Flair best of luck with this and I think that it will do ok if done right.
---------- ADS -----------

JoeShmoe
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:01 am

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#14 Post by JoeShmoe » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:33 am

I've also flown with new leaf three times now, and had a good experience each time. Ive noticed that not only does new leaf charge on average half as much as air canada and westjet on the routes that it flys, but air canada and westjet are matching new leaf prices. But they only match prices on the days of the week new leaf flys, every other day they go back to charging twice as much. As a pilot who doesn't get flight benefits, im saving a ton of money because of new leaf, so I sincerely hope they not only stick around, but continue to force air canada and westjet to stay honest with their prices.

As for service with new leaf, its pretty average. Im a big fan of how they charge less for a checked bag then a carry on. It completely eliminates the rush for overhead bin space because nobody has ginormous carry ons anymore. The planes are fine, more leg room then transat, and ive never noticed the lack of entertainment system cause I've always just read off my phone.

As for this whole pilot wage business, Im just happy there's another route to a large jet that doesn't force you to suffer through jazz or encore for 5 years.

More competition means lower fares, lower fares mean more passengers flying, more passengers flying mean more flights, more flights mean more pilots, more demand for pilots means higher wages. Theses are all good things. Now whether or not new leaf survives much longer is a whole other question.
---------- ADS -----------

Black_Tusk
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 624
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:57 am

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#15 Post by Black_Tusk » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:31 pm

suffer through jazz or encore for 5 years.
Woe is me, it's so hard flying at jazz. :roll:
---------- ADS -----------

infiniteregulus
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 127
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:46 am

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#16 Post by infiniteregulus » Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:47 pm

I don't disagree that more routes equals more pilots, however, more routes and competition at all-time low wages equal lowering of the bar for EVERYONE.
---------- ADS -----------

mbav8r
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1558
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Manitoba

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#17 Post by mbav8r » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:36 pm

JoeShmoe wrote: As for this whole pilot wage business, Im just happy there's another route to a large jet that doesn't force you to suffer through jazz or encore for 5 years.
So as long as you have a quick route to the large jet, screw the damage it does by accepting less than industry standard wages, lowering the bar. The reason that the wages are lower at Jazz now is because pilots like you accepted lower wages at Encore, SR and GGN, thanks for that!
Don't worry, if WJ has its way, the ULCC they are starting will no doubt match Flair wages and you can choose which one you want to screw the rest of us with.
---------- ADS -----------

leftoftrack
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 618
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:10 pm

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#18 Post by leftoftrack » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:59 pm

So as long as you have a quick route to the large jet, screw the damage it does by accepting less than industry standard wages, lowering the bar. The reason that the wages are lower at Jazz now is because pilots like you accepted lower wages at Encore, SR and GGN, thanks for that!
Don't worry, if WJ has its way, the ULCC they are starting will no doubt match Flair wages and you can choose which one you want to screw the rest of us with.
It's his responsibility to make sure you earn more money? in what world is it his responsibility to ensure that you make more money? If you dont like the money you earn, look at yourself. If he refuses the job he works at so you make more money does that mean your going to pay his mortgage and bills?
---------- ADS -----------

mbav8r
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1558
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Manitoba

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#19 Post by mbav8r » Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:55 pm

leftoftrack wrote:
So as long as you have a quick route to the large jet, screw the damage it does by accepting less than industry standard wages, lowering the bar. The reason that the wages are lower at Jazz now is because pilots like you accepted lower wages at Encore, SR and GGN, thanks for that!
Don't worry, if WJ has its way, the ULCC they are starting will no doubt match Flair wages and you can choose which one you want to screw the rest of us with.
It's his responsibility to make sure you earn more money? in what world is it his responsibility to ensure that you make more money? If you dont like the money you earn, look at yourself. If he refuses the job he works at so you make more money does that mean your going to pay his mortgage and bills?
Leftoftrack,
First of all, I'm on the original contract, so for now at least, I'm fine. In fact some would argue I benefited from the new contract forced on us, my seniority is rising fairly rapidly, that doesn't make me feel any better about the fact plenty of pilots undercut our industry leading contract forcing change! Using the "paying the mortgage" excuse simply doesn't FUC&ING justify it, I can say this because I personally have turned down shit paying jobs from shitty operations because I refused to perpetuate the problem. I also didn't bend to the will of the owners under the threat of them finding 10 more pilots who would but if it helps you feel better about being a douchbag, tell yourself whatever you need to, just know, no one respects those pilots and some even wish them ill will.
Hypothetical question, if Sky Regional were to grow and Jazz were to shrink, all the pilots that are now unable to pay their mortgage, that's ok with you?
---------- ADS -----------

leftoftrack
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 618
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:10 pm

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#20 Post by leftoftrack » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:34 am

I'm pretty sure first year pay at sky regional is more than JAZZ.
---------- ADS -----------

goingnowherefast
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 798
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#21 Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:52 am

Does anybody know the pay scale at Flair?

How does that compare to companies without a regional pilot feeder; Sunwing and Transat? How about AC and WJ?
---------- ADS -----------

mbav8r
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1558
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Manitoba

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#22 Post by mbav8r » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:13 pm

leftoftrack wrote:I'm pretty sure first year pay at sky regional is more than JAZZ.
It is NOW, any guesses why that is? But, they don't have a pay scale beyond three years, so any guesses as to how tenure looks to the bean counters when they look at Jazz vs Sky?
We still have a lot of pilots in both seats with better than 10 years seniority and a lot of top scale pilots, makes us expensive compared to 75/hr captains, that's ok as long as they can pay their mortgage who cares if the ones who are laid off as a result can't, right?
How about you answer the question? Maybe you don't want to face the reality you're screwing other pilots over.
---------- ADS -----------

Black_Tusk
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 624
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:57 am

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#23 Post by Black_Tusk » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:08 pm

leftoftrack wrote:
So as long as you have a quick route to the large jet, screw the damage it does by accepting less than industry standard wages, lowering the bar. The reason that the wages are lower at Jazz now is because pilots like you accepted lower wages at Encore, SR and GGN, thanks for that!
Don't worry, if WJ has its way, the ULCC they are starting will no doubt match Flair wages and you can choose which one you want to screw the rest of us with.
It's his responsibility to make sure you earn more money? in what world is it his responsibility to ensure that you make more money? If you dont like the money you earn, look at yourself. If he refuses the job he works at so you make more money does that mean your going to pay his mortgage and bills?
You're the problem in this industry. Pilots are the worst when it comes to only looking out for themselves and throwing anyone and whoever under the bus to gain even a small advantage.
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Mr. North
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 716
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:27 am

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#24 Post by Mr. North » Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:23 pm

Black Tusk and all going on about "lowering the bar" need to give their head a shake. What some people consider to be lowering the bar is in fact a raise or promotion for someone else. Do I wish we were all paid more? Yes. But I'm not about to tar and feather some poor chap who's trying to better his lot in life. And neither should any of you for that matter. Nothing will change the fact that if there is a good flying job, someone will take it. Just because it doesn't fit your level of self worth doesn't mean it's not a step up for someone else. No sense losing sleep over it. This nit picking on our peers has got to stop. It makes absolutely no sense why someone would pass up a good job and suffer in silence for "the betterment of the industry". Get real.

The pilots who discredit their peers for taking positions below their "standards" are only alienating themselves.

Grow up.
---------- ADS -----------

OPS
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:45 am

Re: Flair buys Newleaf

#25 Post by OPS » Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:08 am

Why does it seem most threads end up about Jazz, or it's pilots complaining about something or other? Do they not have a sub forum and private forum they can vent on? They don't seem to paint themselves very professional IMO. They accepted by vote lower wages, no one else is to blame, and it's in the past. Accept it, learn from it, and move on.

Anyways back to the topic at hand. I think this is good news for the industry. We already see the effect AC and WS do on the routes operated by New Leaf/ Flair. Good to have some competition. Good to have another airline out hiring more Canadians. This isn't the 90s or 2000s where pilots were a dime a dozen. Wages can only be suppressed so much in this environment. Even as a ULCC, and WS ULCC to come, they will have to provide some competitive wage or other carrot to attract crews and staff to work for them. With the price of oil forecast to stay down for the foreseeable future, airline profits will continue, lessening the need to cut wages. This isn't rocket science.
---------- ADS -----------

Post Reply

Return to “General Airline Industry Comments”