Jazz Vs Sky Regional

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rudder
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Re: Jazz Vs Sky Regional

Post by rudder »

When are the SKY pilots going to step up and sign an ALPA card?

It doesn't matter whether you are staying at SKY or moving on. Complaining on web boards changes nothing. Instead of waiting for a chance to make a difference in the profession AFTER you leave - make a difference now.

Even the GGN pilots stepped up in overwhelming numbers and said 'enough'. Threats, intimidation, and reprisal are in fact illegal under the Federal Labour Code. Allowing yourselves to be singled out and isolated plays in to their hands. Join together and speak with one certified and collective voice.

All it takes is signing a card.
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HansDietrich
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Re: Jazz Vs Sky Regional

Post by HansDietrich »

rudder wrote:When are the SKY pilots going to step up and sign an ALPA card?

It doesn't matter whether you are staying at SKY or moving on. Complaining on web boards changes nothing. Instead of waiting for a chance to make a difference in the profession AFTER you leave - make a difference now.

Even the GGN pilots stepped up in overwhelming numbers and said 'enough'. Threats, intimidation, and reprisal are in fact illegal under the Federal Labour Code. Allowing yourselves to be singled out and isolated plays in to their hands. Join together and speak with one certified and collective voice.

All it takes is signing a card.

Yup. Absolutely. I've heard even 703/704 companies unionizing, though, I don't personally know of one. It only makes sense for Sky Regional to Unionize. (Actually I already thought they would be. It goes to show how many things I still don't know about our industry). Sky Regional pilots deserve the best contract they can get. They fly the flag of Canada on their tail. Hopefully, their compensation / working conditions merits that.
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rudder
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Re: Jazz Vs Sky Regional

Post by rudder »

Jazz has sent hundreds and hundreds of pilots to AC. Guess what? They were ALL union pilots!

AC doesn't care if you are carrying a union card. It is just the owners of SKY and GGN that have a problem with pilots organizing collectively. And if AC were to decide to cease hiring SKY or GGN union pilots then pilots would simply stop applying to SKY/GGN and the AC Express system would suffer accordingly.

AC regional pilots stood up in the 80's and changed the WAWCON for an entire segment of the profession in Canada. Allowing a corporate agenda to deconstruct that progress and expand non-Union CPA providers is unacceptable. The SKY pilots are now the outlier in the AC Express system.

It is time to step up and join your AC Express peers at the ALPA table.
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rxl
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Re: Jazz Vs Sky Regional

Post by rxl »

Black_Tusk wrote:
rxl wrote:Glad to hear things are good at Skyregional. Whichever one of the two carriers candidates end up at, please do not go there with the attitude that your only reason for being there is to leave and go to Air Canada as quickly as possible. That sort of attitude just drags everyone down.
Well said. Not only does it drag the moral down, but EVERYONE notices. You don't want to be known as the guy (or girl) who only talks about AC and the PML and how they are looking for the fastest way to get there. That's not a way to make friends, especially if you don't understand the bitter history Jazz and AC have spanning back two decades.
When I say that sort of attitude just drags everyone down, I am not really referring to the morale side of it - although that could lead to serious divisions within a group - what I am referring to is the attitude that "I am only here for a short time waiting for my call, why should I care about or do anything about the working conditions at this Express carrier?". That's what will drag us all down and it applies equally to Encore.

If a "mainline" career is your goal, that's great and sincerely good luck and I hope you get there. Please just keep in mind that a lot of excellent people have been turned down by AC and a lot of excellent people have chosen to stay at a regional carrier simply because the grass is not always greener elsewhere. In the mean time these folks have put a great deal of blood sweat and tears over the 30+ year history of the Air Canada regional "family" into making careers at the regional level pretty darn good.

The pilots at Georgian have taken responsibility for themselves by signing union cards and I congratulate them for that.

Skyregional, it's your turn.
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Ord20182018
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Re: Jazz Vs Sky Regional

Post by Ord20182018 »

rudder wrote:When are the SKY pilots going to step up and sign an ALPA card?

It doesn't matter whether you are staying at SKY or moving on. Complaining on web boards changes nothing. Instead of waiting for a chance to make a difference in the profession AFTER you leave - make a difference now.

Even the GGN pilots stepped up in overwhelming numbers and said 'enough'. Threats, intimidation, and reprisal are in fact illegal under the Federal Labour Code. Allowing yourselves to be singled out and isolated plays in to their hands. Join together and speak with one certified and collective voice.

All it takes is signing a card.

The fact that your happy here is what scares me
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Stinky
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Re: Jazz Vs Sky Regional

Post by Stinky »

So, to sum this thread up:

Jazz is a utopia where everyone is in a constant state of bliss. Each night their pilots go to bed and say a little thank you to the gods of ALPA.

Sky Regional is the very definition of hell on earth. Everyone is miserable and should consider a job as a Walmart greeter as a step up.

Somehow Jazz can't seem to shake the reputation on here that it is a career destination. That may have been true in the past but the reality now is that all regionals in Canada are nothing more than a stepping stone. Regardless of where you go, your schedule, compensation, upgrade times and flow to AC are roughly the same.
Flying on a modern automated jet to Dallas, Houston, Atlanta etc. seems a bit nicer than the possibility of flying a crappy old Dash 8 to Sudbury or Val D'or in February.

Most guys aren't going to actually have to make a choice, whoever calls first is the one you go to. Whatever you do, don't use the info on this thread as your tool to decide. The information here is extremely biased and pretty questionable in its accuracy.
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confusedalot
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Re: Jazz Vs Sky Regional

Post by confusedalot »

Stinky wrote:So, to sum this thread up:

Jazz is a utopia where everyone is in a constant state of bliss. Each night their pilots go to bed and say a little thank you to the gods of ALPA.

Sky Regional is the very definition of hell on earth. Everyone is miserable and should consider a job as a Walmart greeter as a step up.

Somehow Jazz can't seem to shake the reputation on here that it is a career destination. That may have been true in the past but the reality now is that all regionals in Canada are nothing more than a stepping stone. Regardless of where you go, your schedule, compensation, upgrade times and flow to AC are roughly the same.
Flying on a modern automated jet to Dallas, Houston, Atlanta etc. seems a bit nicer than the possibility of flying a crappy old Dash 8 to Sudbury or Val D'or in February.

Most guys aren't going to actually have to make a choice, whoever calls first is the one you go to. Whatever you do, don't use the info on this thread as your tool to decide. The information here is extremely biased and pretty questionable in its accuracy.
Yep, that's just about right. I was there for a while, at the end of my career. As far as commuter/regional/second level carriers are concerned, not a bad place to be. As usual, the bad apples will undermine the place, but, at the end of the day, most if not all are good people doing a good job and living their lives. It's a job, don't forget that. And yes, you have some very experienced types in the place, that's a good thing.

And furthermore, absolutely, doing the flying that skv does is by far, more motivating than "the others".

Val d'Or in a classic. Chicago (and other places) in an up to date airplane. You choose. I've done both.

Total compensation, Jazz wins. Pull out your calculator, you will see that it is not by much. Not sure about the Jazz pension plan, but pretty sure it is not the gold plated AC defined pension of days gone by.

And as far as winning the big red lottery, any place you are, it still remains a lottery. No guarantees. Big Red employs, what, 20%-30% of the pilots in the industry?
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Re: Jazz Vs Sky Regional

Post by bobcaygeon »

I've been to those "hotspots" like Atlanta, LaGuardia. etc for the same $$$ as going to YVO on Dash8. You can have it. LGA is cool once, after that it's just a headache.
Status pay makes that decision easy.

BTW I've been stuck in Houston because we couldn't deice in addition to the many, many delays due to thunderstorms.

But I'm simple like that.
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rudder
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Re: Jazz Vs Sky Regional

Post by rudder »

Lots of those YVO destined pilots comfortably make $150k+/yr and will be retiring to 6 figure pensions. But I guess flying shiny planes to cool places for less pay/pension/benefits trumps that.

The point is not about who's plane is faster or flies higher or farther (typical pilot banter) but about raising the WAWCON bar for all of the AC Express pilots (and by extension all airline pilots in Canada).

If you accept the company proffer of aircraft and destinations over WAWCON then you are part of the problem instead of part of the solution.
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Re: Jazz Vs Sky Regional

Post by Stinky »

rudder wrote:Lots of those YVO destined pilots comfortably make $150k+/yr and will be retiring to 6 figure pensions. But I guess flying shiny planes to cool places for less pay/pension/benefits trumps that.
Rudder, you're making the assumption that somebody today will also see those pay scales. We already know they're not going to see that pension.

The only reason the current contract at Jazz looks the way it does is because these older senior guys weren't going to give up a dime but were happy to tack on a lower crappy pay scale at the beginning. AC/Jazz aren't stupid, they knew full well that when that contract expired the demographic at Jazz would be drastically different. That means next time around the argument will be: look how successful the PML is and how many guys move on, you don't need a 15 year pay scale, let's chop off the top few years and give you a couple dollars extra when you need it in the first 5 or so. The demographic at that time will make it an easy sell.

As the Sky and Georgian pay creeps up I would bet that within 5 years the pay will be virtually identical across the board.
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Re: Jazz Vs Sky Regional

Post by Radiocaster »

bobcaygeon wrote:I've been to those "hotspots" like Atlanta, LaGuardia. etc for the same $$$ as going to YVO on Dash8. You can have it. LGA is cool once, after that it's just a headache.
Status pay makes that decision easy.

BTW I've been stuck in Houston because we couldn't deice in addition to the many, many delays due to thunderstorms.

But I'm simple like that.
Exactly what I think to. Been there, done that, got the tshirt. I love my hop an go's going to YGR without talkin to almost anybody. Especially when it's solid CAVOK. LGA just runs kinda normally on a "visual" approach day. Anytime you have under 3000' ceiling is just a nightmare.
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fish4life
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Re: Jazz Vs Sky Regional

Post by fish4life »

I'm sure flying to all those fancy SKV airports is awesome when your sitting on the airport somewhere for 3 hours waiting for a flow time meanwhile the dash classic guy has already flown to Kingston checked into a hotel and is enjoying a beer.
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Stinky
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Re: Jazz Vs Sky Regional

Post by Stinky »

It's all subjective so there isn't much point in arguing which is better. I've done both a lot and my personal preference is to deal with the bigger airports and enjoy a better layover. I actually don't mind flow control and huge lineups at busy airports. A good month of thunderstorms can add a ton of money to your bank account. You can easily have 10+ hours of block growth just sitting in lineups or waiting for a gate.

There's good and bad with both. I'll take a few extra frequency changes and radar vectors if it means ending up with a better hotel and multitude of restaurants to choose from on my layover.
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rxl
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Re: Jazz Vs Sky Regional

Post by rxl »

Stinky wrote:Somehow Jazz can't seem to shake the reputation on here that it is a career destination. That may have been true in the past but the reality now is that all regionals in Canada are nothing more than a stepping stone. Regardless of where you go, your schedule, compensation, upgrade times and flow to AC are roughly the same.
Flying on a modern automated jet to Dallas, Houston, Atlanta etc. seems a bit nicer than the possibility of flying a crappy old Dash 8 to Sudbury or Val D'or in February.
This is exactly the "Stinky" short sighted attitude that I referred to in an earlier post on this thread.

I would guess that including Jazz, Encore, Porter, First Air, Calm Air , Bearskin - the list goes on - there are likely some 3,000 to 3,500 pilots employed in Canada by various airlines doing so-called "regional" flying - probably about half of all pilots employed in Canada by the airlines. Two big realities to consider - "regional" flying is not going to magically disappear or be taken over by the "mainlines" and the majority of pilots employed by the various "regional" carriers are not going to be hired by the "mainlines". We all need to start taking these realities a little more seriously and make some effort to maintain at least the Jazz standard of WAWCON or we're all going to lose even more ground. Pretty sad to see the potential quality of some 3,500 pilot jobs traded away for an interview or a flow through that may or may not happen. A career worthy standard of WAWCON needs to be maintained.
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