Jazz Vs Sky Regional

[NorthernWolf]

In the case you have a job offer in both of those two companies, wich one would you choose and why.
Upgrade time for left seat
PML Air Canada interviews, is there a faster path?
Salary and benefits
Schedule

Thanks for your help!

[Ord20182018]

Coles notes for ya! These are all facts, no rumours no exaggerations! I don't work for Jazz, never have so you figure out which one I'm talking about so this thread doesn't vanish.

Schedule. Fo works 10-20 days a month. If the weather is nice or you want to be spending time with your family chances are your working 20. Cold shitty times of the year your working 10.

Captains. 20-21 days a month EVERY MONTH! minus vacation.

Which brings me to my next point. The company publishes available weeks for vacation every year ie how many spots available for each position/base. February or March will start with 20-30 spots available yet July and August will have 4-5.......... chances of you ever getting summer vacation are almost nil. Jazz contract stipulates that a equal amount of vacation has to be available every week for every position.

Pay. Fo I think is around 35-45ish. Captain is 70-80,more if you pick up the endless draft available but it's tough to do when your working to your CARS limit every month.

Sick time. Call in sick 3-5 days a year your golden. Miss 5-8 days and your getting a registered letter from some office cow warning you that any further absences require a in person meeting and doctors note. After 8 days the remainder are unpaid I'm told.

Credit. Captain will be blocked 80-90 hours a month. Your thinking awesome I can pound that shit out in 14-15 days life is good. That's a negative ghost rider your schedule is full. There is a average min credit of 4 hours per day. What that means to you is day 1 of 3 will start with 5am yyz to yul then sit for 26 hours........ stay with me. Day 2 will be a light Yul to Ord maybe a third leg if your lucky. Then Whamo day 3 is 5 legs all slammed in to your 14 hour day. End result is 12 hours of credit and shit look at that you were away from home for 4 days.

Speaking of 14 hour days....... that's the limit for a 705 operation right? Haha not around these neck of the woods young Daniel Son. Unforeseen blah blah blah. Basically there definition of unforeseen is pretty much anything out of the dictionary. Captain consults with crew about extending duty to 17 hours..... crew is too tired...... call crew scheduling advise them your fatigued...... that's a paddling! I mean a in person meeting with the company so they can explain "industry standard"

Upgrades. They hire direct entry captains! Need I say more? Ok I will. I heard the pass rate for a upgrade is around 60% right now. No hard data to back that up though.

PML. You want your shot at big red? Wait 2 years get a bullshit video interview the details I'm unaware of at the moment and then watch Jr with a 4 year degree, BMW M6 and 3000 hours get the call because he can say hello in 4 different languages. You should have chosen your birth parents better boy! Then you could afford all of the above. No degree no job, maybe that will change as the pool dries up and yes every asshole East of the Pacific claims to know some one that got on with out it but they are few and far between.

I could go on and on and on but I'm burning up 1 of my 9 days at home this month. I need a whiskey!

[co-joe]

Jazz, in case you get PFO'd on the PML.

Unless jet time to go play in the sandbox, or to go flying upside down, is more important than long term lifestyle to you.

[Black_Tusk]

I can't speak for Sky, but I'm very happy at Jazz. If AC slows hiring or says no to me, it's a place I would be more than happy to fly at for my whole career. The schedule is average like anything when you first start, but now with all the attrition your seniority here would rise quickly. If you want to take the Classic for the upgrade it's hovering around a year. Although the next big bid will tell us if that was an anomaly or to expect more of the same.

[Inverted2]

I would go to Jazz. There is no guarantee that you will get on with AC at either place. Jazz is far superior in perks other than pay. Good benefits, you have a pension. Top notch perdiems. Union representation. The starting pay is pretty lousy but after a few years you can make pretty good $$$ here.

[iamnomaverick]

In the case you have a job offer in both of those two companies, wich one would you choose and why.
Upgrade time for left seat
PML Air Canada interviews, is there a faster path?
Salary and benefits
Schedule

Thanks for your help!

To the original poster, here are my two cents. I personally,being in the place I am in life, would take Jazz but that's because I am almost 35 years old and by now I care more about lifestyle (money, days off, pension, vacation ect..) than those shiny jets.

"Upgrade time for left seat" Latest patch got awarded after 11 months, effective in just under 14 months from date of hire (Classic dash) but it does not matter what you fly here as we all get paid the same and there's no freeze between the classic and the Q.

"PML Air Canada interviews, is there a faster path?": I hear there's a 2 year freeze at SR but I can not confirm that because I don't work there. At Jazz there is no stopping you from going anywhere, if you have a degree it looks like it would be quick. My buddy was hired Nov 2015 and he is in ground school at Mainline now (yes with a degree), that being said many people with degrees got PFOd too. BUT that shouldn't be the only reason to come here, we like happy people here. I continue to see much better pilots and people then me get PFOd (even from the video interview believe it or not), no explanation whatsoever. So if you decide to come here make sure you will be comfortable flying the in regional league for the rest of your career otherwise you will be miserable if AC says no bueno.


"Salary and benefits": Many many posts on the salary thing but to sum it up for you (at jazz) if you are first year FO, out of reserve and working only the min block (usually around 82ish) you will take home ($3200-$3500) a month working 15-18 days tops depending on how you bid your schedule, if you want to make more you can easily pick up extra flying and make an extra few hundred dollars for a day or two of overtime. Benefits are some of the best I have seen, a little pricey but excellent coverage. DC Pension, employee share stock program and profit sharing program. You really can't beat it at the regional level anyways.


"Schedule": Again, assuming you are out of reserve you will work 15-18 days MAX (Some senior RJ captains and FO work less too). If you have good seniority and prefer to work high credit pairings and work less days you can do that, if you want to take it easy and work more days you can also do that. If you are on reserve then it is 18 days a month unless you reach your blocking average before the end of the month but I have yet to see that happen.

Again, I wouldn't advice guys/girls to come here if it is just for that AC interview. It is a video interview now and I know great people who got PFOd from it. Come here if you think you will be happy flying for the rest of your career for a great company that flies safe and modernish regional aircraft in case you get PFOd from AC.


Good luck!

[Rowdy]

I'll add to the Jazz side. Have/had friends at SKR... Doesn't sound all too great from a schedule/atmosphere over there. Anyways..

Awarded an upgrade on the Classic in 9 months. Was trained at the 14 month mark. $75/hr as a year one skipper... Not so bad.

I've had a grand whopping total of 3 days of reserve my entire time here and that was due to a training screw up. May change on the captain side, we shall see. There is enough movement to AC and retirements that the next year or so should move very very quickly.

First year as an FO I averaged 16 days a month.. and an average of one day of that being overtime. My t4 showed 43k and I was trying to lead a good lifestyle, not chase dollars.

Started into the employee share purchase when the stocks were 5.80/share. They're mid $7 now. Smooth and consistent. Paying dividends and getting that 60% company match. Not as amazing as WJ but I don't have to rely on my shares as a pension fund. We already have one of those..

The benefit package like some said is a bit costly, but I don't worry about anything. Need a prescription? New glasses? Put a kink in your neck trying to climb into the RJ? covered.

I've flown with all the western classic crews. Its a solid group. Generally good natured. No bad apples. That may be because I'm a people person.. but I doubt it. I don't know a ton of the YYZ and YUL crews.. but it sounds good out there too.

85hrs sick credit every year. To a max of two years (it rolls over). Unless you're a complete tool and abusing the system, you will not get questioned or called.

As someone else mentioned before, there is a huge amount of leeway (with a bit of seniority) in how you can build your schedule. Need to be home every night? Bid single days. Commute? 3-4 day pairings with morning or afternoon starts. Want large stretches of days off? Top or bottom load a month. Quite a few people living on the island bid YYJ and YCd overnights and go home!

I'm happy to be here, and if the mothership doesn't want me, I'm more than happy to stay. I may just stay even if they do call..

[Black_Tusk]

Rowdy hit on all the points.

I've been online about 3 months now and in that time have had a pretty good schedule. Up until this month I hadn't touched reserve. Looks like they are slowly filling the positions they need out east which means RES for me. First month on line I was last on the list and held a block.

Additionally, I've been able to get multiple stretches of 7-9 days off to go home. Sometimes that meant putting a pairing up on the trade board for a drop, but I picked up a few easy single turns in YVR to make up for it (all while being able to be home). With a few extra days of flying and getting a bit lucky with some cancellations and sked or better pay I have cleared 110 credits each month. March I hit 120. Without a lot of extra days, and the WDO days I did do all started at 1PM and I was home by 6 or started at 4PM and ended around 9.

I'll be moving to Vancouver soon with a base transfer. Out of 40+ available positions on my type, only 18 have been filled so far from current pilots. So imagine that, within 3 months on line I'll be sitting somewhere in the middle of the list with likely a lot of new hires filling in behind me in the coming months. Even if I fall into the 30's that will still be a great schedule considering how long I've been here, and it will only get better.

[NorthernWolf]

All those answers are well appreciated! It will help me a lot on my final decision From all these arguments, on a general point of view concerning every aspect mention, Jazz seems to be the best bet. Thanks for all of your replies!

[PT6onH20]

.

[HansDietrich]

I can't speak for Sky, but I'm very happy at Jazz. If AC slows hiring or says no to me, it's a place I would be more than happy to fly at for my whole career. The schedule is average like anything when you first start, but now with all the attrition your seniority here would rise quickly. If you want to take the Classic for the upgrade it's hovering around a year. Although the next big bid will tell us if that was an anomaly or to expect more of the same.

Exactly. I love it at Jazz. I have absolutely no problem spending the rest of my career here. Lifestyle and compensation are very nice to enjoy a comfortable life. Yes, you'll have people tell you that the pay is not great at first (which is true), but it gets better very fast.

I would choose Jazz, however I have friends who work at Sky and they love it. They're both good companies. I just think Jazz is a long term career airline, where as Sky Regional is still trying to create its identity. It'll get there eventually.

It's up to individual choices. At Jazz you may fly a Dash 8-100 for a few years, where as Sky, you're straight on to a "big" jet. (You guys know what I mean)

Good luck!

Hans

[CZBBYYZPilot]

I want to at least offer a little more perspective on Sky Regional, since there were way more replies from Jazz folks.

Sky Regional isn’t a bad place to be, yes there are some things that could be improved, but working conditions here are good, and getting better all the time. I’ll give you my perspective as an FO.

Pay
You’ve seen the comparison charts. Sky pilots start at a higher hourly wage than any other regional. Captains also start several years ahead on pay vs. other regionals. The longer term money is not currently great at Sky, but hopefully that is addressed as people end up making Sky a career spot.

Schedule
-Scheduling has improved greatly, and I feel I have a lot of control over what I do every month.
-11 days off guaranteed a month.
-Grey days are optional, ie. guaranteed off (additional days off when there is nothing planned for you). You can pick up flights and get regular pay if they call you outside 36 hours, or you can accept Draft pay if you pick it up inside 36 hours.
-Stby duty is shared evenly as much as possible. You only get a handful or less Stby days. There’s AM standby (3am-3pm) and PM stby (12pm-12am).
-Option to have a schedule where 36 hours off in 7 days is respected, or you can opt in to 3 days of in 17 if you wish to work more together. This makes for a good commuting schedule. I do this (even though I’m not commuting), and get long stretches off each month (often 7 or more days off in a row).
-Captain schedules are definitely more full, as there is always a shortage of Captains. They seem to block 90 hrs regularly, with lots of draft opportunities, whereas the FOs are anywhere between 60-80.

Flying
-You fly to some of the most challenging airports in North America if not the world. LGA, EWR, ORD, ATL, DCA, DFW, etc.
-Layovers are usually 11-18 hours typically, but there are a few longer ones.
-Layovers in PHL, EWR, ATL, DFW, IAH, ORD, DEN, YUL, and more.
-There are really good people working at Sky, and so it’s a pleasure going to work. You get to fly with some experienced ex-Air Canada retirees (60 rule), Skyservice veterans (who know their stuff), and people from everywhere else (lots of Porter guys).
-There are 1,2, and 3 day pairings. 3 day pairings are the most popular/abundant.
-I’ve never worked 5 legs in a day (max is 4).

Equipment
-The Embraer is a pleasure to operate. Okay, hand flying it is awkward and it isn’t a nice plane to hand fly. That being said, the systems are very straight-forward, and the automation is very good. If you’ve ever flown a Metro, you will be quite pleased with your new bird (it’s nothing like a metro). Maintenance is really good, and the airplanes are actually quite reliable. There’s commonly no MELs, at worse there’s 1 or 2, but these are dealt with in a timely fashion.

Training
-We get instruction from many of the same guys who do the Air Canada training (Embraer, 787…).
-The training is all done at Air Canada flight ops headquarters/CAE.
-The training is very good. It’s a really good learning environment, and the instructors are very helpful and knowledgeable.

Upgrades
Due to attrition, upgrades come around the 2 year mark at Sky Regional. They do hire direct entry captains, but only as a last resort to upgrading their own pilots. They make every effort to upgrade their First Officers. I haven’t been through the upgrade process yet, but it seems challenging, but fair. The line indoc guys/gals are all good to work with.

Growth
Sky regional is growing. We’re going to see 5 more Embraers coming online soon, along with new routes. They’re still hiring Fos as far as I know, but the training department has it’s hands quite full with training the Q guys/gals at the moment. Things keep improving at Sky, and it really is a great place to work

PML
Lots of guys/gals are getting video interviews and in-person interviews. I don’t know the pfo rate though, but things are moving. Jazz has more pilots, so will have more spots in AC groundschools. It’s proportional. If you have a degree and ATPL, you’re in good shape for going to AC, wherever you go. Right now I’ve heard that the 2 year freeze is not happening for Sky’s PML list. People are getting called with less than 2 years experience.

Benefits
I’m not that well versed in the ins and outs of benefits, but our Group Health Plan seems pretty good to me. 80% drug, dental, vision. Flex points for other therapies. I won’t go more into than that. Pretty standard.

Conclusion
I appreciate that Jazz is a top notch place to go, there’s no doubt. I have tons of friends there and they really love it. I’m sure anybody would be happy going there. Sky has turned into a solid place to work, and things get improved regularly. I really love working here. Don’t count it out. You get onto great equipment, work with great people, and have great flexibility in your schedule (I can only vouch for my own schedule). Take this info as you like, but just wanted to give my 2 cents. Good luck!

[rxl]

Glad to hear things are good at Skyregional. Whichever one of the two carriers candidates end up at, please do not go there with the attitude that your only reason for being there is to leave and go to Air Canada as quickly as possible. That sort of attitude just drags everyone down.

[Black_Tusk]

Glad to hear things are good at Skyregional. Whichever one of the two carriers candidates end up at, please do not go there with the attitude that your only reason for being there is to leave and go to Air Canada as quickly as possible. That sort of attitude just drags everyone down.

Well said. Not only does it drag the moral down, but EVERYONE notices. You don't want to be known as the guy (or girl) who only talks about AC and the PML and how they are looking for the fastest way to get there. That's not a way to make friends, especially if you don't understand the bitter history Jazz and AC have spanning back two decades.

[YesMassaPayson]

I want to at least offer a little more perspective on Sky Regional, since there were way more replies from Jazz folks.

Sky Regional isn’t a bad place to be, yes there are some things that could be improved, but working conditions here are good, and getting better all the time. I’ll give you my perspective as an FO.

Pay
You’ve seen the comparison charts. Sky pilots start at a higher hourly wage than any other regional. Captains also start several years ahead on pay vs. other regionals. The longer term money is not currently great at Sky, but hopefully that is addressed as people end up making Sky a career spot.

Schedule
-Scheduling has improved greatly, and I feel I have a lot of control over what I do every month.
-11 days off guaranteed a month.
-Grey days are optional, ie. guaranteed off (additional days off when there is nothing planned for you). You can pick up flights and get regular pay if they call you outside 36 hours, or you can accept Draft pay if you pick it up inside 36 hours.
-Stby duty is shared evenly as much as possible. You only get a handful or less Stby days. There’s AM standby (3am-3pm) and PM stby (12pm-12am).
-Option to have a schedule where 36 hours off in 7 days is respected, or you can opt in to 3 days of in 17 if you wish to work more together. This makes for a good commuting schedule. I do this (even though I’m not commuting), and get long stretches off each month (often 7 or more days off in a row).
-Captain schedules are definitely more full, as there is always a shortage of Captains. They seem to block 90 hrs regularly, with lots of draft opportunities, whereas the FOs are anywhere between 60-80.

Flying
-You fly to some of the most challenging airports in North America if not the world. LGA, EWR, ORD, ATL, DCA, DFW, etc.
-Layovers are usually 11-18 hours typically, but there are a few longer ones.
-Layovers in PHL, EWR, ATL, DFW, IAH, ORD, DEN, YUL, and more.
-There are really good people working at Sky, and so it’s a pleasure going to work. You get to fly with some experienced ex-Air Canada retirees (60 rule), Skyservice veterans (who know their stuff), and people from everywhere else (lots of Porter guys).
-There are 1,2, and 3 day pairings. 3 day pairings are the most popular/abundant.
-I’ve never worked 5 legs in a day (max is 4).

Equipment
-The Embraer is a pleasure to operate. Okay, hand flying it is awkward and it isn’t a nice plane to hand fly. That being said, the systems are very straight-forward, and the automation is very good. If you’ve ever flown a Metro, you will be quite pleased with your new bird (it’s nothing like a metro). Maintenance is really good, and the airplanes are actually quite reliable. There’s commonly no MELs, at worse there’s 1 or 2, but these are dealt with in a timely fashion.

Training
-We get instruction from many of the same guys who do the Air Canada training (Embraer, 787…).
-The training is all done at Air Canada flight ops headquarters/CAE.
-The training is very good. It’s a really good learning environment, and the instructors are very helpful and knowledgeable.

Upgrades
Due to attrition, upgrades come around the 2 year mark at Sky Regional. They do hire direct entry captains, but only as a last resort to upgrading their own pilots. They make every effort to upgrade their First Officers. I haven’t been through the upgrade process yet, but it seems challenging, but fair. The line indoc guys/gals are all good to work with.

Growth
Sky regional is growing. We’re going to see 5 more Embraers coming online soon, along with new routes. They’re still hiring Fos as far as I know, but the training department has it’s hands quite full with training the Q guys/gals at the moment. Things keep improving at Sky, and it really is a great place to work

PML
Lots of guys/gals are getting video interviews and in-person interviews. I don’t know the pfo rate though, but things are moving. Jazz has more pilots, so will have more spots in AC groundschools. It’s proportional. If you have a degree and ATPL, you’re in good shape for going to AC, wherever you go. Right now I’ve heard that the 2 year freeze is not happening for Sky’s PML list. People are getting called with less than 2 years experience.

Benefits
I’m not that well versed in the ins and outs of benefits, but our Group Health Plan seems pretty good to me. 80% drug, dental, vision. Flex points for other therapies. I won’t go more into than that. Pretty standard.

Conclusion
I appreciate that Jazz is a top notch place to go, there’s no doubt. I have tons of friends there and they really love it. I’m sure anybody would be happy going there. Sky has turned into a solid place to work, and things get improved regularly. I really love working here. Don’t count it out. You get onto great equipment, work with great people, and have great flexibility in your schedule (I can only vouch for my own schedule). Take this info as you like, but just wanted to give my 2 cents. Good luck!

This is an awfully rosy view of Sky. While a lot of the numbers here are true, don't forget the following:

-The last Terms of Employment resulted in a net decrease in pay (in this labour market? really???). Despite that, half the pilot group, who were on King Airs and PC-12s this time last year, are super stoked to get 11 days off instead of 10 (who cares when the burrito bandit has such great automation!!!!!)
-People love to talk about how flying on your Grey Days is optional now, but since that rule has been in place, word is they are giving you Standby's instead of grey days. Why bother giving you the option when they can shackle you to your phone on call for 6 days a month? Oh, and for 3 hours of pay credit per standby period.
-New TOE has zero protection for reassignment, basically means you are their dirty standby wh0r3 if your pairing is removed due to training/IROPs/etc. Thought you were going to commute home after your pairing ended? Sorry, now you are on call and may be assigned some nonsense that runs 10 hours longer than your original sked.
-New TOE allows them to keep you at the airport for up to 2 hours with no duty assignment, and then assign you a duty 2 hours after that, no day room required. Is this the north?
-8 sick days. Seriously, 8 sick days all year. And if you use more than 3 in a row, you need a doctor's note. Also, in the past, they have sent out memos that if you use EVEN ONE sick day on certain long weekends or holidays, you need a doctor's note. Legal? Nobody seems to care.
-"4 SDOs based on seniority" means nothing when a) you aren't in the top 25% of the list and b)there is no scheduling transparency, and no way to verify whatever Merlot spits out every month. Management champions their scheduling program as "leading edge"....meanwhile Allegiant in the US bargained it out of their last contract. That's right, Allegiant pilots have a better scheduling system than Sky.
-Management has a notable contempt for the labour group and their semi-annual "town halls" are basically as close as you can get to union busting without actually being prosecuted for it. Nobody is willing to speak up for fear of leaving a bad mark on their record when(if) AC finally calls.
-There is zero transparency or consistency in the upgrade program, in the way people are disciplined, sick day use, etc. Obviously, there is no union and as such, no protection.
-Pilots called in for disciplinary action because they booked off due to fatigue; told in the meeting "if you want to see Air Canada, you should shape up"
-The claim is that direct entry captains are hired "only as a last resort" but the last 2 years of hiring discredits that theory. Way back when the Q400s were still around. The running joke on that fleet was: "How do you upgrade at this place? Quit, change your name, apply as a Direct Entry Captain. They'll love you for your experience."
-The management shtick is that "we are all in this together". Lower costs = more airplanes = more upgrades = more growth. Enough of the pilots eat up this shlock to keep the ALPA drive at bay.
-Despite trying to project an image of leadership and professionalism, the mgmt offices at Bay 3 in YYZ are basically an incestuous den of foul play, extra marital affairs, drama and gossip.

I'm not saying Sky is worse than GGN, or better than Jazz. I'm not saying don't go there. I'm just saying...understand that all you are is an input cost in the grand Air Canada scheme to maximize profit. Nobody cares about you. They would pay you nothing if it were legal.

Massa Payson

[Black_Tusk]

[Ord20182018]

I couldn't agree more. Who ever posted the positive reply is seriously out of touch with reality. Pilots are quiting for China, cargo jet, Japan, Air Transat, You name it. It's a terrible job with terrible working rules. Any one that says different is either tied to management, a fo working 10 days a month or in search of a upgrade.

[CZBBYYZPilot]

I couldn't agree more. Who ever posted the positive reply is seriously out of touch with reality. Pilots are quiting for China, cargo jet, Japan, Air Transat, You name it. It's a terrible job with terrible working rules. Any one that says different is either tied to management, a fo working 10 days a month or in search of a upgrade.

People go from Encore to China. People from everywhere apply at Transat. I hear it's a good place. It's no knock on Sky.

No on all counts. FO who works a normal amount. No connection to management. And writing a positive post is going to definitely help with an upgrade...

Also the poster above's idea that being at home "shackled to the phone" is such a tough life? Every pilot is on stby at some point. It's part of the job. Yes the pay could be better, sure a pension would be nice. I'm not disagreeing those are important things. But I'm happy with my job. Maybe I'm just a positive guy. You guys can continue being negative and unhappy.

[Black_Tusk]

I dunno, I ain't shackled to my phone and I'm even on reserve.

Also, what the heck is a grey day?

[Craig1983]

Sideline for one sec gents/ladies. I hope to finish my CPL and Multi Group1 this summer. Fingers crossed they're still hiring whenever I'm ready. My question is do I have ANY chance of getting in to a regional without a degree? I was going to go to school after high school but I ended up in a career and just stuck with it. Now I'm actually going for my passion which is flight and I completely forgot the majors want a degree. From what I've read on this thread, a life working regional doesn't sound all that bad and I'd be happy with that. I'll be happy with whatever flight line I work. Can I even get in to SKV/JZA/GGN without one?

Cheers,
Craig