German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

Really? Going to pee without calling back was amaaazzzzzing?

What if the Germanwings Pilot didn't go to a doctor at all, and lied when the aviation doctor asked him how he was feeling? Can you conceive of a situation where someone was having dark thoughts and maybe didn't tell anybody?
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Ypilot
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Ypilot »

*** Sigh ***

Are you still an active airline pilot?
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Ypilot
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Ypilot »

That guy at germanwing was a known as a psychiatric case, everyone freaking knew!!! German doctors couldn't disclose the information because of confidentiality BS. We are not talking here about someone with anxiety and light depresion. Even the flightschool was aware during his training. Swiss air did a thorough review of this procedure. I would be much more scared about hijacks or a FA with a 3 week training than a colleague who has spent years earning his seat in a cockpit.
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Last edited by Ypilot on Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

Oh yes. Are you?

You didn't answer my question about the disturbed pilot who doesn't tell anybody. Expand your thinking.
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Ypilot
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Ypilot »

Waste of time!
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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

Ypilot wrote:Waste of time!
Why are pilots unable to have a grown up conversation about this? You won't even answer a simple question.
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Ypilot
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Ypilot »

Rockie wrote:
Ypilot wrote:Waste of time!
Why are pilots unable to have a grown up conversation about this? You won't even answer a simple question.
Answer mine, are you still an active airline pilot? Pretty sure you are not.
Have you ever met someone with psychiatric problems? I did, more than once, it doesn't go unseen unlike depression. Since the Germanwing accident everyone is much more sensitive to the issues of mental health. Can more be done to raise awareness? Sure.

Knee jerk reaction? No thanks!
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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

I did answer your question, look up a few posts. And you're not a psychiatric doctor. I'm sure real psychiatric doctors would disagree with you that spotting people with mental health issues is as easy as you claim. I've known people with severe depression who were very good at hiding it. In fact I worked many times with someone who did in fact commit suicide, and nobody even knew he had a problem until his wife pleaded for help.

Spare me your amateur expertise please.
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Ypilot
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Ypilot »

You are not either. I am going to tell you a fact, two people in a cockpit rule was on the verge to make me a nut case, and not just me. No offence but I trust my colleages.
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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

Oh yes I am an active pilot. Are you freaking serious? That simple little innocuous requirement bugged you that much?

Jesus wept...

What's going to happen to you when something, I don't know...serious happens? Are you going to start screaming and beating yourself over the head?
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Ypilot
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Ypilot »

I am starting to think that you liked it when the govt forced flight attendants into the cockpit, maybe it was the only way for you to make conversation :smt055 . The powaaa of the left seat. :smt040
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altiplano
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by altiplano »

Rockie,

Do you know better than the regulators, the experts consulted by the regulators, the government, the airlines, and the majority of the pilot community?

Let it go.
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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

Ypilot wrote:I am starting to think that you liked it when the govt forced flight attendants into the cockpit, maybe it was the only way for you to make conversation :smt055 . The powaaa of the left seat. :smt040
You still haven't answered my question.
altiplano wrote:Rockie,

Do you know better than the regulators, the experts consulted by the regulators, the government, the airlines, and the majority of the pilot community?

Let it go.
I know why pilots are opposed to it, and it has nothing to do with safety. I know the government thinks the fact doctors are required to report known illnesses solves the problem, but it doesn't address unknown problems. I know pilots lobbied the government hard to get rid of the rule. I know management is made up of pilots who have the same reason as you do for hating the rule, and who also cited the same invalid safety arguments. They also lobbied the government to get rid of the rule. I know the FA's hated it because it was inconvenient, and I also know 99% of them didn't even know what their job was when they entered the flight deck. Most of the pilots didn't either.

I also know this type of tragedy will happen again. Perhaps then we can have a grown up discussion about simple mitigating strategies.
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Impact
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Impact »

Rockie wrote:I know why pilots are opposed to it, and it has nothing to do with safety.
That's a fairly strong and broad statement, Rockie. Even if you did indeed "know why pilots are opposed to it", why can't you respect the consensus view? It would seem that this thread has become less about the two person rule, and more about Rockie dictating his wants on everyone else. I won't go so far as to state the word "arrogance", but your lack of ability to concede that anyone else's views may be valid, is extremely concerning. :goodman:

And yes, my own major concern was that a psychotic or ill-willed F/A had more of an opportunity to initiate a catastrophic event. Thankfully. that risk has now decreased. In general, I trust pilots more than F/A's, and I'm not ashamed of saying that. It would seem many others hold the same view.
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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

Impact wrote:That's a fairly strong and broad statement, Rockie. Even if you did indeed "know why pilots are opposed to it", why can't you respect the consensus view?
I don't respect the consensus view because this is a matter of safety, not hurt feelings. There are people who actually think the 2 person rule was a good idea but are silent about it because of intense peer pressure from the very vocal pilot group. I am not one of those people who will be silent and I have expressed my opinion to management.
Impact wrote:I won't go so far as to state the word "arrogance", but your lack of ability to concede that anyone else's views may be valid, is extremely concerning.
See above.
Impact wrote:And yes, my own major concern was that a psychotic or ill-willed F/A had more of an opportunity to initiate a catastrophic event. Thankfully. that risk has now decreased. In general, I trust pilots more than F/A's, and I'm not ashamed of saying that. It would seem many others hold the same view.
Then I'll ask you the same question I've been asking everybody else, and maybe you'll be the first to actually have the balls to answer it. Given your distrust of your crew of flight attendants and everybody else because they may pose a psychotic or ill-willed risk, are you going to bar anybody but the other operating pilot from ever entering the flight deck while in flight? Do you think a completely sterile and isolated flight deck should be a regulatory requirement due to the risk concerns you have?

Think carefully before you reply, because if a flight attendant wants to do something they can do it just as easily delivering your meal or coffee as they can during a bathroom break. There is virtually no difference in opportunity.

Also, why do you trust pilots more than flight attendants when it comes to susceptibility to mental health issues when the facts don't support you? More aircraft crashes have occurred by unstable pilots locking themselves in the flight deck than have been caused by flight attendants going crazy and attacking the crew. Look it up.
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altiplano
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by altiplano »

Rockie. You're way out there on your own tangent and imagining your own statistics without context.

I'll ask you again. Do you know better than all the agencies, and pretty much everyone else?

I think no one typically mistrusts an FA but mandating them to the flight deck provided no added security benefit, you said yourself that most of them didn't know what their responsibilities were...

Also, any perceived benefit or detriment is offsetting and in such statistically insignificant instances to be essentially nil. ie. it didn't make a difference whether they were there or not these past 2 years and if we continued with it into the future the result would be the same...

The context error with your claims of pilots being more often responsible than observers for an accident is this:

There has been a pilot on the flight deck 100% of the time on every flight on every day since the beginning of human flight.

We can only guess how often observers are on flight decks, let's estimate it as less than 0.0001% of flight time.

So is a pilot 1,000,000x more likely to cause an accident than an observer? Maybe, but they are there >1,000,000x more than observers are...

That's the context... You put an observer on the flight deck as often as a pilot and the number of incidents attributable to each would be similar.

Anyway, rule is done, get over it and let's focus on something we can all agree needs work. You obviously have the time...

I don't know... you pick

- Getting our fatigue and duty regulations up to international norms?
- Getting Canadian pilots working together to advance our collective interests?
- Getting rid of expiring ADBs?
- National transportation strategy?
- Economic reform?
- Global warming?
- Electoral reform?
- Other?
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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

altiplano wrote:Rockie. You're way out there on your own tangent and imagining your own statistics without context.
I can give you a list of confirmed or strongly suspected crashes occurring because a single pilot locked himself in the cockpit and flew the aircraft into the ground or water. It's easy to look up but I'll do it for you if you can't. Can you show me a list of crashes occurring due to flight attendants attacking the pilots?
altiplano wrote:I'll ask you again. Do you know better than all the agencies, and pretty much everyone else?
Prior to 2001 all the agencies and pretty much everyone else saw no need for secure cockpit doors despite many, many hijackings. Your point is not taken.
altiplano wrote:I think no one typically mistrusts an FA but mandating them to the flight deck provided no added security benefit, you said yourself that most of them didn't know what their responsibilities were...
Of course it provided added security, they could open the door to let the other pilot in even if the remaining pilot didn't want them to for some reason. You can't see that? As for them not knowing, that was the company's fault for not properly training them. Lack of training is no excuse and doesn't negate the reason they were there.

There are plenty of people right here in this thread saying the FA's are a threat. It is one of the bogus excuses used by pilots to get rid of the rule, but I actually agree with you. Nobody really distrusts individual FA's because if they were known to be untrustworthy they wouldn't be working on an airplane. Same thing with pilots. It's the unknowns...
altiplano wrote:We can only guess how often observers are on flight decks, let's estimate it as less than 0.0001% of flight time.
Now who's going out on a tangent?
altiplano wrote:Anyway, rule is done, get over it and let's focus on something we can all agree needs work. You obviously have the time...
The nice thing about people is they can do many things concurrently and there's lots of help, so how about this?

- Getting our fatigue and duty regulations up to international norms?
- Getting Canadian pilots working together to advance our collective interests?
- Getting rid of expiring ADBs?
- National transportation strategy?
- Economic reform?
- Global warming?
- Electoral reform?
- Simple mitigation strategies to guarantee cockpit access to flight crew locked outside.
- Other?
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altiplano
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by altiplano »

Apparently statistical context is lost on you, and I'm not on a tangent.

if you can't recognise that 100% of the time there is a pilot on the flightdeck so of course there are more incidents with pilots on the flightdeck than with anyone else, then I don't know what to tell you...

I'll acknowledge that there have been a handful of pilot induced accidents, and I'm not going to make a list of potential third person/observer caused accidents or near accidents, but they have occurred too.

Less than pilot caused?
Sure, but again, look at it in context... pilots are always there, observers are not so it stands to reason there would be far far fewer. If you had an observer there as often as a pilot you'd see that gap narrowed to likely a near equal number of events because the probability is similar.

Here is your logic put another way...

My neighbour gets the paper every day. It gets wet by the rain on average 36.5 times/year, about 10% of the time...

On my porch there is never a wet paper (same porch design).

Your summation says:

My porch must be better at keeping papers dry. There is a 0% chance of a wet paper.

But looking deeper, the fact is there is never a paper on my porch, wet or dry, because I don't get the paper delivered... so it's not because of my porch at all but the lack of presence of a paper to begin with...

If I started getting the paper as often as my neighbour, the likelihood of getting a wet paper would be at about the same rate of 36x/year...
Or if I got it less often, say only on Saturdays there would be fewer instances of wet papers, only about 5.2 times/year, but percentage wise, over the long run, it would be about 10% of the total time there is a paper on my porch it would be getting wet...

Incidents with Pilot only in cockpit or Observer in cockpit, these statistics are unlikely to change much, because as they are, they are razor razor slim chances... so far removed they are a remote statistically improbability per flight or flight hour with or without the system you advocate it won't make a difference...
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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

Length of time in the cockpit is irrelevant, it's the opportunity. FA's have access to the cockpit so any of them wishing to do harm merely has to wait for you to order coffee and let them in to bash you over the head. Easy peasy. Hasn't happened unless you know of a case. Which reminds me...you haven't answered the question I've asked everybody else either.
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DrSpaceman
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by DrSpaceman »

Is this Rockie guy seriously an active airline pilot? That's a pretty scary thought...
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