German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Discuss topics relating to airlines.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

Dockjock
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1045
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:46 pm
Location: south saturn delta

Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Dockjock »

Nothing is guaranteed. Don't be a pedant. Life is a series of probabilities.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

Glad you realize it's not guaranteed. Speaking of probabilities there are literally hundreds of abnormal ECAM and QRH procedures that I don't expect to ever see in the course of my long career, yet they exist. Given the certain and suspected cases of pilot suicide after locking the other pilot out why does this procedure get people's panties so twisted? It's just a harmless procedure, and even if you think it's pointless that doesn't explain the level of animosity towards it.

You're offended by it. Just admit it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Dockjock
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1045
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:46 pm
Location: south saturn delta

Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Dockjock »

I readily admit that. I am professionally offended by the implication that, when the other pilot goes to the toilet, I will commit murder/suicide. It is deeply, deeply offensive more so because the policy isn't grounded in any kind of reasonable risk probability. Why do we have an MEL? Why do we only have two engines? Why aren't all pilots required to sleep at the airport the day before their duty so that startup OTP isn't contingent on highway traffic or driving conditions? Why give police guns? What if they shoot somebody? What if they're crazy themselves? Who will police the police?!

My point is that the probability of that particular risk is too low to make the hassle, insult, and increase in other risk factors worthwhile to keep the policy.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

Finally someone who's honest about it at least.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Dockjock
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1045
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:46 pm
Location: south saturn delta

Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Dockjock »

Not sure what you've proven but you sure seem satisfied.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Impact
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:28 am

Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Impact »

Rockie wrote: It's just a harmless procedure, .....
Actually, it's not. As others have said numerous times, it's introducing another (more significant?) threat into the flight deck.

The Germans have come to the conclusion of exactly that. Hopefully other regulatory bodies will follow suit.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

Dockjock wrote:Not sure what you've proven but you sure seem satisfied.
I'm happy that someone finally admitted they want a safety precaution eliminated because their feelings are hurt, not veiling it behind a false safety argument. Like this:
Impact wrote:Actually, it's not. As others have said numerous times, it's introducing another (more significant?) threat into the flight deck.

The Germans have come to the conclusion of exactly that. Hopefully other regulatory bodies will follow suit.
Door opens - FA steps in, pilot steps out - door closes.
Door opens - pilot steps in, FA steps out - door closes.

Please explain how this increases risk. If you think it does I presume you will also refrain from ordering coffee or a meal as the door opening for that also increases risk. Presumably you will refuse all requests for jump seaters as a result of the increased risk as well. Door remains closed with only operating pilots permitted access to the F/D...period.

If pilots don't agree to that it betrays the safety argument for what it is, a smoke screen.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Dockjock
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1045
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:46 pm
Location: south saturn delta

Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Dockjock »

The idea that I can't be unsupervised in the cockpit of the airplane of which I am in command is offensive. Ditto for the second in command. Don't make it sound like I'm sad about it, incredulous is more like it. I don't subscribe to the idea that the flight attendant themself is a threat, we have FAs up front for dozens of other reasons on the regular with no problem. The problem is, the procedure is guarding against an event so unlikely, so deep down a hole of other failed checks and balances (an undiagnosed suicidal murderous pilot, or diagnosed as paranoid and unreported) AND it introduces other perhaps more significant threats in the process that, on balance, the net effect on safety and security is negative.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Jack Klumpus
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 379
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: In a van down by the river.

Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Jack Klumpus »

Impact wrote:
Rockie wrote:Also it's got nothing to do with who you trust more, ......
Actually, it has everything to do with who you trust more. That's the crux of the issue. :goodman:
It has everything to do with who you trust!

Rockie, you really do a great job of making a fool out of yourself. Go through the whole convo, see if just once I stated my opinion. I did not. Look at your last post directed to me. You tell me what my opinion is? Really, only a fool would do that. This proves that you don't read my posts, you make the scenario in your head, and you believe it.

For this reason, I won't go any further with discussing this with you.

One day you will learn why they did this, and you will see that I gave you so many hints, but due to your pre determined thoughts, you couldn't see them. It's a real shame. As pilots, it's extremely dangerous for us to have a pre determined or pre conceived thought about something, basing that notion on a "made up" reason that we created. Evidence based practice my friend. Look up the meaning. It's your friend.
---------- ADS -----------
 
When I retire, I’ll miss the clowns, not the circus.
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

Yes Jack, go back and read the thread. I asked you for your opinion on why FA's are a threat which you still haven't answered, and I still don't know. It was a question, not a statement.
Dockjock wrote:The idea that I can't be unsupervised in the cockpit of the airplane of which I am in command is offensive. Ditto for the second in command. Don't make it sound like I'm sad about it, incredulous is more like it. I don't subscribe to the idea that the flight attendant themself is a threat, we have FAs up front for dozens of other reasons on the regular with no problem. The problem is, the procedure is guarding against an event so unlikely, so deep down a hole of other failed checks and balances (an undiagnosed suicidal murderous pilot, or diagnosed as paranoid and unreported) AND it introduces other perhaps more significant threats in the process that, on balance, the net effect on safety and security is negative.
Yes I know for you it's a personal insult. I am acknowledging that and congratulating you for your honesty. It would be nice if everybody was as honest in their reasons then we could dispense with this silly argument FA's are a threat. Then we could start addressing the silly argument that you aren't trusted to fly the airplane safely.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Impact
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:28 am

Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Impact »

Actually, I'm not personally insulted. I just think it was a bad decision.

Rockie, until you acknowledge that F/A's are a thread, this discussion will continue in its predictable circular fashion.

The Germans and Swiss are acknowledged for their analytical skills. Obviously, after analyzing the threats logically, they've determined it is safer to revert back to what was in place all along. Essentially, they trust pilots more than F/A's, which I can't disagree with.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Impact
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:28 am

Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Impact »

Dockjock wrote:Not sure what you've proven but you sure seem satisfied.
Reminds me of when a dog lays in a ditch waiting for a car to drive by, briefly chases it, then proudly trots back home satisfied that he protected his home. Repeat. Happy dog. :)
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

For there to be a mature discussion about this certain facts need to be realized:

1. TC, your employer and the travelling public trust you to fly the aircraft safety. If that weren't true you'd be kicking a can down the road somewhere looking for a non-flying job.

2. Pilots are not immune from mental illness.

3. The flight deck door is just as effective at keeping the good guys out as the bad.
Impact wrote:Rockie, until you acknowledge that F/A's are a thread,
Explain if you can why they are a threat and you are not.
---------- ADS -----------
 
co-joe
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4562
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME

Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by co-joe »

Rockie wrote:Who here can tell us what the FA's job was to do when he/she are in the flight deck? I asked them many times over the last year and very few of them knew.
Pretty sure it's to unlock the cockpit door when the other FCM gives the secret knock.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
complexintentions
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2183
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:49 pm
Location: of my pants is unknown.

Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by complexintentions »

Rockie,

Did you ever take my advice and contact Swiss and ask them directly for their reasoning behind the change?

Or are you just too afraid of the logical, rational answer they'll give you, and want to continue getting yourself a new one torn by various other posters?

Sorry, but I will no longer engage in your false arguments. You say you want answers, but are unwilling to hear ones you don't agree with. So what's the point?

The dog chasing the car analogy was particularly apt.
---------- ADS -----------
 
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

complexintentions wrote:Did you ever take my advice and contact Swiss and ask them directly for their reasoning behind the change?

Or are you just too afraid of the logical, rational answer they'll give you, and want to continue getting yourself a new one torn by various other posters?
Their rationale is public, they are unlikely to give me the real reason. You however still haven't given me a logical, rational reason why the policy should go. All you and anyone else you claim are tearing me a new one say is that the policy doesn't do anything, introduces a threat, or are insulted by it. Insulted by it by the way is the most honest and accurate reason I've ever heard. Your precious, tender little snowflake feelings are hurt by it. You should be embarrassed.

So go ahead Complex, give me an actual logical reason that I can't discredit in two sentences....
---------- ADS -----------
 
skypirate88
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 444
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:46 am

Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by skypirate88 »

Seems Transport Canada is also lifting the rule.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/tr ... -1.4164592
---------- ADS -----------
 
A mile of road will take you a mile, but a mile of runway can take you anywhere
Impact
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:28 am

Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Impact »

This is very good news. Common sense has prevailed.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

Until the next time. And tragically there will be a next time...
---------- ADS -----------
 
Impact
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:28 am

Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Impact »

Rockie wrote:Until the next time. And tragically there will be a next time...
Yes perhaps, however the risk of a different tragedy associated with an ill-willed/psychotic minimally vetted F/A has just decreased.

I salute TC for doing the right thing. It has made our industry in Canada safer.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Airline Industry Comments”