Air Transat YOW

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photofly
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Re: Air Transat YOW

#226 Post by photofly » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:46 pm

confuzed wrote:Dude, do you EVER stop?
Why would I want to stop when there are fun people like you to talk to?
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Re: Air Transat YOW

#227 Post by rookiepilot » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:37 pm

photofly wrote:
confuzed wrote:Dude, do you EVER stop?
Why would I want to stop when there are fun people like you to talk to?
.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

#228 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:12 am

BE20 Driver wrote:I'll accept Gilles account of what happened. I'll accept that the fueler was just running flat out and fueling planes in the order he received them in.

What I don't understand is why Air Canada managed to successfully intervene, KLM managed to successfully intervene. They found a reason and for them it was a duty day issue that was accommodated. I was not there and I can only speculate what happened or what I would have done differently. The first thing that comes to mind is being more adamant that we will soon be out of fuel and need to get some ASAP to keep the APU and lights on. Nearly running out of fuel is a big reason to cut in line if you ask me. Again, I wasn't there privy to the flight deck conversation or the ACARS messages.
Here is the normal way to get fuel :

Dispatch prepares the flight plan, which contains the fuel load and forwards this to the Operations office of the airport of departure.
Operations office prints the flight plan which is brought to the crew, and call the fueler with the fuel load.

The airport authority plays no role in this.

When our four aircraft landed in YOW that day, our dispatch in YUL prepared flight plans for the 4 aircraft and sent them to the OPS office in YOW which in this case, was First Air Ops, which is contracted by Air Transat for this service. First Air Ops called the fueler with the fuel loads for the 4 aircraft.

What the YOW airport authority is concerned with, is assigning gates and parking positions to the incoming aircraft. So First Air Ops was also the one responsible for calling the YOW airport authority to obtain parking positions for the aircraft.

If the aircraft that was low on fuel had ever been told that he would have to wait 4 hours for fuel, he would have stated that he had insufficient fuel to do so. But as has been stated a million times before, he was always told that he was going to be refueled "in 30 minutes", and then was told the same thing again when the 30 minutes expired.

When he ran out of fuel, the fuel truck had arrived was in the process of being connected. The tank feeding the APU still indicated 60 to 70 Kg of fuel. He had never run a main tank dry before....
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Re: Air Transat YOW

#229 Post by TFTMB heavy » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:02 am

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
BE20 Driver wrote:I'll accept Gilles account of what happened. I'll accept that the fueler was just running flat out and fueling planes in the order he received them in.

What I don't understand is why Air Canada managed to successfully intervene, KLM managed to successfully intervene. They found a reason and for them it was a duty day issue that was accommodated. I was not there and I can only speculate what happened or what I would have done differently. The first thing that comes to mind is being more adamant that we will soon be out of fuel and need to get some ASAP to keep the APU and lights on. Nearly running out of fuel is a big reason to cut in line if you ask me. Again, I wasn't there privy to the flight deck conversation or the ACARS messages.
Here is the normal way to get fuel :

Dispatch prepares the flight plan, which contains the fuel load and forwards this to the Operations office of the airport of departure.
Operations office prints the flight plan which is brought to the crew, and call in the fueler with the fuel load.

The airport authority plays no role in this.

When our four aircraft landed in YOW that day, our dispatch in YUL prepared flight plans for the 4 aircraft and sent them to the OPS office in YOW which in this case, was First Air Ops, which is contracted by Air Transat for this service. First Air Ops called the fueler with the fuel loads for the 4 aircraft.

What the YOW airport authority is concerned with, is assigning gates and parking positions to the incoming aircraft. So First Air Ops was also the one responsible for calling the YOW airport authority to obtain parking positions for the aircraft.

If the aircraft that was low on fuel had ever been told that he would have to wait 4 hours for fuel, he would have stated that he had insufficient fuel to do so. But as has been stated a million times before, he was always told that he was going to be refueled "in 30 minutes", and then was told the same thing again when the 30 minutes expired.

When he ran out of fuel, the fuel truck had arrived was in the process of being connected. The tank feeding the APU still indicated 60 to 70 Kg of fuel. He had never run a main tank dry before....
Let's also remind everyone that the plane landed with a low fuel condition to which the emergency services were on standby for, the airport authority was well aware of the low fuel condition of this aircraft.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

#230 Post by complexintentions » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:40 am

photofly wrote:If the only people who flew were those happy to sit on the tarmac for six hours without raising an eyebrow, their market for air travel would be very small.

The very existence of the 90 minute limit in law suggests that *everyone* gets mad at that, except, apparently, airline management.
Meh. Like I said, no matter what, people like you would just complain. It's the default setting for losers. Whine and pout first, ask questions later. Or not. I mean why ask why, the world is out to get you, you're a victim. And then on to the next crisis. After awhile it's just white noise, really. At least you can know you're part of a popular and ever-growing club.

Meanwhile the people who actually have some relevant information are sharing it. As much as it may pain you to attempt to change your mind, you might actually consider that the crew were doing the best they could with the information they were given and not just trying to make like miserable for their passengers.

Not even the more, uh, "special" ones. :mrgreen:
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Re: Air Transat YOW

#231 Post by photofly » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:06 am

complexintentions wrote:As much as it may pain you to attempt to change your mind, you might actually consider that the crew were doing the best they could with the information they were given and not just trying to make like miserable for their passengers.
As much as it might pain you to listen to what's being said, the fact that the crew were doing their best with the information that they were given isn't in dispute.

But if you want - in error - to keep understanding this as a "bash the crew" thread and getting all stroppy-sensitive about it, go ahead, I don't really care.

Likewise, if you think that passengers should sit mute on the tarmac for six hours in this scenario and feel ok about it, that's your right too. Clearly I don't agree. Do you really think that nothing could have been done better? By anyone? Astonishing.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

#232 Post by rookiepilot » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:15 pm

http://business.financialpost.com/trans ... ac-delay-2

Air Transat slammed, fined for handling of hours-long tarmac delay

The Canadian Transportation Agency said Air Transat broke its tariff agreement with customers about when they can be let off a flight due to a tarmac delay

OTTAWA — A federal agency has ordered Air Transat to cover out-of-pocket expenses for passengers who were caught in an hours-long tarmac delay this summer as part of a ruling that slams the airline’s handling of the fiasco.

The Canadian Transportation Agency said Air Transat broke its tariff agreement with customers about when they can be let off a flight due to a tarmac delay.

The ruling made public Thursday comes almost four months after two flights — one from Rome, the other from Brussels — sat on the tarmac in Ottawa for almost five and six hours, respectively, with passengers not allowed to disembark.

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Last edited by rookiepilot on Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Air Transat YOW

#233 Post by rocket81 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:20 pm

A quote from a cbc article.
The agency found that pilots had too much power over how the situation was handled and it resulted in the violation of the airline's tariff, or agreement with passenge
Amazing, this is simply amazing, what a load of c**p. Soon, pilots will have to ask permission to enter the cockpit.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

#234 Post by confusedalot » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:03 pm

There is something horribly wrong with this entire picture......

As I recall, the Transat flight was passed over numerous times for refueling while other airlines got their fuel and left?

Also, in the prevailing pandemonium, a gate position to disembark passengers was perhaps not even available, even if you wanted to go that route?

Sounds like one government department covering the airport authority caboose...........
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Re: Air Transat YOW

#235 Post by photofly » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:06 pm

Ah yes. An airline came in for criticism. It must be a government conspiracy.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

#236 Post by confusedalot » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:17 pm

No conspiracies here, something does not add up. I know I would do everything I can to avoid 4 hours, or whatever it was, to get people off of the plane. Suspect the Transat crew was thinking the same. Over and above that, there was a hard and fast reason to do so, duty time running out fast.......
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Re: Air Transat YOW

#237 Post by Donald » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:59 pm

No conspiracy.

It's simple.

Transat cheaped out with 7F as their ground handler, refused any extra assistance, and punished their pax as a result.

Other ground handlers offered to help with airstairs, etc, but 7F refused.

Fuellers won't fuel you in that situation.

Transat learned an expensive lesson.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

#238 Post by FICU » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:40 pm

confusedalot wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:03 pm
There is something horribly wrong with this entire picture......

As I recall, the Transat flight was passed over numerous times for refueling while other airlines got their fuel and left?
What people are forgetting is that you can't refuel with pax on board unless there is a usable exit to deplane the pax if needed in the event of a fuel spill. Therefore, before Transat could get fuel they needed to be either bridged or have portable stairs brought to the plane.
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