Air Transat YOW

Discuss topics relating to airlines.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5931
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: PAX stuck on ground for 6 hours, AT flight

Post by digits_ »

Eric Janson wrote: Same here - I'd try filing Sabotage charges against anyone who did this. Very serious offense under ICAO Regulations and covered under International Law not some useless PC laws that give people a slap on the wrist.

Those of you thinking that blowing a slide is in any way acceptable might want to reconsider.

You really don't want to run into my "Zero Tolerance" wall.
So how long do you have to be locked up in a plane in the sun without food or water before it is warranted to blow it? It's a gradual process, but in the end it does eventually become an emergency.

Once the door is open, none of the passengers will care about your "Zero Tolerance" wall. You will have lost all authority at that point.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
User avatar
Old fella
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2394
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am
Location: I'm retired. I don't want to'I don't have to and you can't make me.

Re: PAX stuck on ground for 6 hours, AT flight

Post by Old fella »

rookiepilot wrote:
Eric Janson wrote:
complexintentions wrote:Oh, and blow a slide without authorization on my plane simply because you're miffed and hangry and I'll do everything in my power to make make sure you not only never fly on the airline, but get charged with criminal misconduct. The potential for injury on any slide evac is high, it's not a freakin' bouncy castle intended for people to get off the plane because they're hot and bored. If someone thinks it's worth breaking some little old lady's ankle because they're frustrated I will make sure they answer for it.
Same here - I'd try filing Sabotage charges against anyone who did this. Very serious offense under ICAO Regulations and covered under International Law not some useless PC laws that give people a slap on the wrist.

Those of you thinking that blowing a slide is in any way acceptable might want to reconsider.

You really don't want to run into my "Zero Tolerance" wall.


Eric, I do respect your posts.

But the counterpoint question again, is (I asked earlier, without response)

If a car driver, leaves a car full of kids in the hot sun for hours, and one dies, that driver will be charged.

If then, a captain of an airplane , allows an aircraft to sit in the hot sun for 6 hours, without AC or water supply for the pax, and a vulnerable person dies, should that Captain, responsible for the safety of everyone on board, be charged?
To quote an eminent jurist, should somebody succumb due any issues relating to their health while confined on this aircraft in such circumstances, criminal negligence causing bodily harm/death couldbe brought against said airline and personnel in charge. The CDA also said, in his opinion this airline is treading in very dangerous waters. Tort lawyers would file a class action lawsuit as well seeking damages. AT would have a lot to answer for in our Canadian Courts, it would be quite messy. Again I am quoting from a person in the know.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Eric Janson
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1243
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:44 am

Re: PAX stuck on ground for 6 hours, AT flight

Post by Eric Janson »

rookiepilot wrote:
Eric Janson wrote:
complexintentions wrote:Oh, and blow a slide without authorization on my plane simply because you're miffed and hangry and I'll do everything in my power to make make sure you not only never fly on the airline, but get charged with criminal misconduct. The potential for injury on any slide evac is high, it's not a freakin' bouncy castle intended for people to get off the plane because they're hot and bored. If someone thinks it's worth breaking some little old lady's ankle because they're frustrated I will make sure they answer for it.
Same here - I'd try filing Sabotage charges against anyone who did this. Very serious offense under ICAO Regulations and covered under International Law not some useless PC laws that give people a slap on the wrist.

Those of you thinking that blowing a slide is in any way acceptable might want to reconsider.

You really don't want to run into my "Zero Tolerance" wall.


Eric, I do respect your posts.

But the counterpoint question again, is (I asked earlier, without response)

If a car driver, leaves a car full of kids in the hot sun for hours, and one dies, that driver will be charged.

If then, a captain of an airplane , allows an aircraft to sit in the hot sun for 6 hours, without AC or water supply for the pax, and a vulnerable person dies, should that Captain, responsible for the safety of everyone on board, be charged?
The Captain is legally responsibility for the safety of the aircraft and its occupants. So the simple answer to your question is 'Yes'. However in the real world things are not usually so black-and-white.

I would never intentionally leave passengers onboard for 6 hours in the conditions described - unfortunately sometimes as Captain you can get into unfortunate situations where things don't end up the way they should.

I wasn't in Ottawa so I'm not going to comment on this specific event.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

One thing passengers should remember - Captain and crew are in exactly the same situation as you.

In medical cases I would have no hesitation in requesting medical personnel to come to the aircraft to examine someone and I would follow their advice.

Here's a personal example:-

I've operated out of Lagos without a working APU - it was 36c in the cabin when the crew boarded and we spent the entire preparation plus up to 4 hours delay in these conditions.

In this situation I refused to allow boarding until all cargo and bags had been loaded and the cargo doors closed. It was board and go.

On one occasion after boarding there was a visa issue and 1 passenger had to be offloaded and his bag located. Not much that can be done - sometimes it just doesn't matter what you try.

Cabin temperature prior to engine start would be well over 40C.

We'd be doing this 2-3 times a week. This was during the Ebola crisis in W Africa.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Always fly a stable approach - it's the only stability you'll find in this business
User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4403
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by rookiepilot »

Eric, brings an interesting question. If things get to a 40 C cabin for an extended period, let's say, Who determines if there is a valid medical issue?

It seems apparent several passengers thought that was the case, but the captain didn't, and called 911, a decision criticized here for usurping the captains authority. How do we know those calling 911, first did not try to bring the situation to the crews attention?


Also what the crew is experiencing as a consequence of conditions, and the effects on a 6 month old or 85 year old, may be rather different.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Eric Janson
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1243
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:44 am

Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by Eric Janson »

rookiepilot wrote:Eric, brings an interesting question. If things get to a 40 C cabin for an extended period, let's say, Who determines if there is a valid medical issue?

It seems apparent several passengers thought that was the case, but the captain didn't, and called 911, a decision criticized here for usurping the captains authority. How do we know those calling 911, first did not try to bring the situation to the crews attention?


Also what the crew is experiencing as a consequence of conditions, and the effects on a 6 month old or 85 year old, may be rather different.
All valid points.

I would rely on my Cabin Crew to bring any issues in the cabin to my attention - I'm busy trying to get the flight started. We work as a team and I rely on my team members.

There's a larger issue of whether the Airline should be operating like this - in W Africa you do the best you can with what you've got.

Nothing like having a visibly ill passenger loaded on your flight in the midst of an Ebola crisis with no information about his condition - if he had had anything serious we had all been exposed at this point!

I wasn't in Ottawa so I can't comment on what did and didn't happen or how high the cabin temperature got.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Always fly a stable approach - it's the only stability you'll find in this business
User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4403
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by rookiepilot »

Eric Janson wrote:
rookiepilot wrote:Eric, brings an interesting question. If things get to a 40 C cabin for an extended period, let's say, Who determines if there is a valid medical issue?

It seems apparent several passengers thought that was the case, but the captain didn't, and called 911, a decision criticized here for usurping the captains authority. How do we know those calling 911, first did not try to bring the situation to the crews attention?


Also what the crew is experiencing as a consequence of conditions, and the effects on a 6 month old or 85 year old, may be rather different.
All valid points.

I would rely on my Cabin Crew to bring any issues in the cabin to my attention - I'm busy trying to get the flight started. We work as a team and I rely on my team members.

There's a larger issue of whether the Airline should be operating like this - in W Africa you do the best you can with what you've got.

Nothing like having a visibly ill passenger loaded on your flight in the midst of an Ebola crisis with no information about his condition - if he had had anything serious we had all been exposed at this point!

I wasn't in Ottawa so I can't comment on what did and didn't happen or how high the cabin temperature got.
Yes, flying in parts of Africa....must be interesting. I've been there several times, and have had friends who flew there. Appreciate the discourse.

One interesting sidebar was, when boarded, the police called forward the individual who made the 911 call, and informed him, he may face charges for a frivolous 911 call. Wisely on a PR basis I think, they reconsidered and did not proceed with that choice -- :mrgreen:
---------- ADS -----------
 
fish4life
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2405
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by fish4life »

I'd imagine people living in Africa are probably a lot better adjusted to high temperatures as well. I bet a "comfortable temperature" for an inuk is 20 degrees Celsius cooler than someone that has been living in Africa for years.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
bezerker
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 340
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:05 pm
Location: YVR

Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by bezerker »

I don't think anyone has mentioned this:

If, because of unforeseen operational circumstances, such as stipulated in section 14.5.1, the duration of the flight duty time and/or the duty period is excessive, the FCM is entitled to the following premiums:

Regular crew Flight Duty Time Premium (gross)
Exceeds 14 hours $100.00
Exceeds 15 hours $200.00 (additional premium)
Exceeds 16 hours $750.00 (additional premium)


Does that effect decision making?
---------- ADS -----------
 
You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on
gasbag1
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:12 pm

Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by gasbag1 »

As unfortunate as this was, it is not the first nor will it be the last irrop diversion. Personally I spent over 6 hours on the ramp in YYB after AF crash in YYZ. We were one of 5 Airbus clogging the ramp and like Transit we were transborder requiring customs clearance to deplane. CBSA are very unforgiving of any deplaning of passengers or crew no matter what the circumstance. Large fines will be levied for violations. No CBSA officers in YYB. So here we were in YYB running out of water with a full pax load and the JAZZ ops sent out flats of water in the back of a pickup truck to the ramp and handed them up to us at the forward door...and it's a long way up.

Now I didn't have a transatlantic to fly then take a long delay but from LAX after holding for weather it was long enough. We were able to get fuel which was pleasantly surprising and we did exceed a duty day maximum by the time we got to YYZ. There was no choice to book off.

It's part of the business and no one was injured just poor ground handling in YOW in the Transat diversion.
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5931
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by digits_ »

gasbag1 wrote:Large fines will be levied for violations.
To whom? The crew, the company or the passenger?
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
derk99
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 8:22 am

Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by derk99 »

Air Transit use to use Servisair(swissport) for their ground handling needs but a few years ago the decided they could save money by giving the contract to ASIG now know as Menzies that lasted one winter as ASIG lost the contract due to poor service such as no staff showing up to work on weekends,thefts,and other issues so instead of going back to swissport they decided they could save more money by giving the contract to the folks at first air.First air does not keep staff around all day waiting for diversions and first air does not have the ground support equipment such as stair trucks or push or tow tractors available to handle wide body aircraft.So moral of the story is if you pay cheap you get cheap.
---------- ADS -----------
 
gasbag1
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:12 pm

Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by gasbag1 »

digits_ wrote:
gasbag1 wrote:Large fines will be levied for violations.
To whom? The crew, the company or the passenger?
This was over 10 years ago a Captain was fined $5,000.00 for leaving the aircraft on a turn while bonded. And many heavy fines for the Company as for an individual you can always be incarcerated. Testing the CBSA can have serious consequences.
---------- ADS -----------
 
av8ts
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:31 am

Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by av8ts »

gasbag1 wrote:
digits_ wrote:
gasbag1 wrote:Large fines will be levied for violations.
To whom? The crew, the company or the passenger?
This was over 10 years ago a Captain was fined $5,000.00 for leaving the aircraft on a turn while bonded. And many heavy fines for the Company as for an individual you can always be incarcerated. Testing the CBSA can have serious consequences.
Irrelevant to this flight. Customs was available in YOW
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4403
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by rookiepilot »

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ai ... -1.4240405

AT's response to the the CTA: "It wasn't OUR fault".

:lol:
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
complexintentions
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2183
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:49 pm
Location: of my pants is unknown.

Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by complexintentions »

rookiepilot,

Admittedly, I am at a disadvantage here, because I don't know (or care) what the f$ck you do for a living, and thus cannot try and find a forum that pertains to that field, if it exists, and then proceed to lecture you on how to do your job from an equally uninformed viewpoint as you do mine. Alas. Unlike you, I do not judge the precise actions of the crew of Air Transat on that day, as I was not there, and choose to base my speculation of what happened on personal experience, not the never-inaccurate, never-sensationalist-or-biased media reporting of aviation. *cough*

The crux of your article seems to be that either Air Transat management or the Ottawa Airport Authority dropped the ball and both blame the other. And if I have to choose between who I find more trustworthy, competent, or credible: a private company with a profit motive and obviously only financial and PR downside to this delay? Or a quasi-privatized, unaccountable unelected bloated entity like an airport authority in Canada, hmmm...? My own reading between the lines tells me that more likely YOW was dragging their feet to make the point that AT shouldn't be using third-party services over their (YOW's) own services. Don't outright ignore them - that would get people angry at you, and probably be legally actionable - but keep AT at the back of the line, let 'em wait. I mean hey, it's not like an entitled employee group in Canada would ever use the public's misery for leverage, is it? That would be unheard of! lol Unions are MASTERS at this sort of tactic.

The YOW statement trying to distance themselves from the refuelling and handling arrangements is disingenuous - they may not deal directly with the airlines but they most certainly have their finger on the scale as to priority of access and who gets what! Just ask yourself WHAT or HOW would Air Transat gain from purposely inconveniencing their pax? If you think they honestly believe that saving a few bucks is worth it for this media shitstorm you'd have to be a bit thick. AT is not exactly a new entrant to the market.

So I'll leave y'all to your ruminations of that flight and just summarize what will happen should you find yourself a passenger on a flight I am responsible for that ends up in an unfortunate delay like this.

If you are in genuine medical need of assistance, (because apparently, the threshold for human survivability is now six unexpected hours in an aircraft, and Ottawa is of course, located in sub-Saharan Africa, and an airliner is of course, exactly like a parked car, with temperatures that "steadily rose to above 23C", *gasp*), I will certainly avail every possible resource to help you. I will not (unlike this Air Transat captain, according to your vast expertise) sit idly by, callously disregarding your near-death status, not "doing his job".

If you call 911 because you're upset and thirsty, I couldn't care less - it has nothing to do with "usurping anyone's authority", I just will hope to see you legally charged, as you should be, for using an important service as you say, "frivolously".

However, if you choose to disregard or disobey the instructions of the crew doing their very best to look after you, and deploy a slide, thus endangering the safety of the rest of the passengers, I will do everything in my power to make sure you reap the maximum consequences of your actions. I'm sure you'll understand, since a constant theme of yours is preaching about accountability.

Now, I won't make some pompous statement like "I trust that will be the last word on the subject" harrumph harrumph, since you already did that earlier. But it's an absolutely beautiful morning here in Prague, and on a hot day in summer there are few things in the world more stirring to observe than Czech women strolling around Charles Bridge. So I can assure you this will be MY last word on this thread. :mrgreen:

Toodles.
---------- ADS -----------
 
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.
Spaceshuttle
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:37 am

Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by Spaceshuttle »

That would be good! Enjoy the pilsner
---------- ADS -----------
 
av8ts
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:31 am

Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by av8ts »

Which ground handling service is owned by the YOW airport?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4403
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by rookiepilot »

Hmmm.

Trying to see where I advocated ever pulling a slide in a post.

When you resort to distorting people's quotes:

You lose.

:mrgreen:
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: PAX stuck on ground for 6 hours, AT flight

Post by photofly »

Eric Janson wrote:Same here - I'd try filing Sabotage charges against anyone who did this. Very serious offense under ICAO Regulations and covered under International Law not some useless PC laws that give people a slap on the wrist.

Those of you thinking that blowing a slide is in any way acceptable might want to reconsider.

You really don't want to run into my "Zero Tolerance" wall.
The captain rightfully has a lot of authority on board, while the doors are shut. Does the airline really extend the courtesy as far as allowing the captain to decide days or weeks later what charges might be brought and against whom?

The airline itself might not want to push things, if the defence would introduce into evidence the videos of shit and pee piling up on the AT-branded lavatory floors (do airplane toilets flush without the APU?) and I can be quite eloquent about the conditions with no water in the 40° heat, the cabin foetid with smells of children's diarrhoea and vomit, and hour upon hour of broken promises from the cockpit about when things would improve.

It's easy for both sides, after the fact, to look back, and say, hey, it was "only" six hours. Just sit it out, relax. But imagine four hours in, and with no resolution in progress, who's to say then how long it was going to last? Six hours seems crazy enough; there was no reason *not* to imagine it stacking up to ten, or twelve.

I'm not comforted, either, by comments that the crew suffered just the same. Quite the opposite, in fact. If the crew aren't able to look after their own comfort I have no reason to imagine that they're able to look after mine. At some point you - everyone - has to take charge of their own situation. It's just a matter of when.

So no, Eric, sorry - there are lots of reasons to consider, and reconsider - but nothing that you (hypothetically) threaten me with here weighs heavily with me.

And I have to ask more about the Zero Tolerance wall - did you make Mexico pay for it? :-)
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4403
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: PAX stuck on ground for 6 hours, AT flight

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote:
Eric Janson wrote:Same here - I'd try filing Sabotage charges against anyone who did this. Very serious offense under ICAO Regulations and covered under International Law not some useless PC laws that give people a slap on the wrist.

Those of you thinking that blowing a slide is in any way acceptable might want to reconsider.

You really don't want to run into my "Zero Tolerance" wall.
The captain rightfully has a lot of authority on board, while the doors are shut. Does the airline really extend the courtesy as far as allowing the captain to decide days or weeks later what charges might be brought and against whom?

The airline itself might not want to push things, if the defence would introduce into evidence the videos of shit and pee piling up on the AT-branded lavatory floors (do airplane toilets flush without the APU?) and I can be quite eloquent about the conditions with no water in the 40° heat, the cabin foetid with smells of children's diarrhoea and vomit, and hour upon hour of broken promises from the cockpit about when things would improve.

It's easy for both sides, after the fact, to look back, and say, hey, it was "only" six hours. Just sit it out, relax. But imagine four hours in, and with no resolution in progress, who's to say then how long it was going to last? Six hours seems crazy enough; there was no reason *not* to imagine it stacking up to ten, or twelve.

I'm not comforted, either, by comments that the crew suffered just the same. Quite the opposite, in fact. If the crew aren't able to look after their own comfort I have no reason to imagine that they're able to look after mine. At some point you - everyone - has to take charge of their own situation. It's just a matter of when.

So no, Eric, sorry - there are lots of reasons to consider, and reconsider - but nothing that you (hypothetically) threaten me with here weighs heavily with me.

And I have to ask more about the Zero Tolerance wall - did you make Mexico pay for it? :-)
Again I ask -- threats are fine but if someone dies in a future incident, which isn't impossible to conceive one day, are you Captains exerting authority, prepared to face the full consequences?

Or does accountability only run one way?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Airline Industry Comments”