Air Transat YOW

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rookiepilot
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by rookiepilot »

Eric Janson wrote:
rookiepilot wrote:Eric, brings an interesting question. If things get to a 40 C cabin for an extended period, let's say, Who determines if there is a valid medical issue?

It seems apparent several passengers thought that was the case, but the captain didn't, and called 911, a decision criticized here for usurping the captains authority. How do we know those calling 911, first did not try to bring the situation to the crews attention?


Also what the crew is experiencing as a consequence of conditions, and the effects on a 6 month old or 85 year old, may be rather different.
All valid points.

I would rely on my Cabin Crew to bring any issues in the cabin to my attention - I'm busy trying to get the flight started. We work as a team and I rely on my team members.

There's a larger issue of whether the Airline should be operating like this - in W Africa you do the best you can with what you've got.

Nothing like having a visibly ill passenger loaded on your flight in the midst of an Ebola crisis with no information about his condition - if he had had anything serious we had all been exposed at this point!

I wasn't in Ottawa so I can't comment on what did and didn't happen or how high the cabin temperature got.
Yes, flying in parts of Africa....must be interesting. I've been there several times, and have had friends who flew there. Appreciate the discourse.

One interesting sidebar was, when boarded, the police called forward the individual who made the 911 call, and informed him, he may face charges for a frivolous 911 call. Wisely on a PR basis I think, they reconsidered and did not proceed with that choice -- :mrgreen:
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by fish4life »

I'd imagine people living in Africa are probably a lot better adjusted to high temperatures as well. I bet a "comfortable temperature" for an inuk is 20 degrees Celsius cooler than someone that has been living in Africa for years.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by bezerker »

I don't think anyone has mentioned this:

If, because of unforeseen operational circumstances, such as stipulated in section 14.5.1, the duration of the flight duty time and/or the duty period is excessive, the FCM is entitled to the following premiums:

Regular crew Flight Duty Time Premium (gross)
Exceeds 14 hours $100.00
Exceeds 15 hours $200.00 (additional premium)
Exceeds 16 hours $750.00 (additional premium)


Does that effect decision making?
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by gasbag1 »

As unfortunate as this was, it is not the first nor will it be the last irrop diversion. Personally I spent over 6 hours on the ramp in YYB after AF crash in YYZ. We were one of 5 Airbus clogging the ramp and like Transit we were transborder requiring customs clearance to deplane. CBSA are very unforgiving of any deplaning of passengers or crew no matter what the circumstance. Large fines will be levied for violations. No CBSA officers in YYB. So here we were in YYB running out of water with a full pax load and the JAZZ ops sent out flats of water in the back of a pickup truck to the ramp and handed them up to us at the forward door...and it's a long way up.

Now I didn't have a transatlantic to fly then take a long delay but from LAX after holding for weather it was long enough. We were able to get fuel which was pleasantly surprising and we did exceed a duty day maximum by the time we got to YYZ. There was no choice to book off.

It's part of the business and no one was injured just poor ground handling in YOW in the Transat diversion.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by digits_ »

gasbag1 wrote:Large fines will be levied for violations.
To whom? The crew, the company or the passenger?
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by derk99 »

Air Transit use to use Servisair(swissport) for their ground handling needs but a few years ago the decided they could save money by giving the contract to ASIG now know as Menzies that lasted one winter as ASIG lost the contract due to poor service such as no staff showing up to work on weekends,thefts,and other issues so instead of going back to swissport they decided they could save more money by giving the contract to the folks at first air.First air does not keep staff around all day waiting for diversions and first air does not have the ground support equipment such as stair trucks or push or tow tractors available to handle wide body aircraft.So moral of the story is if you pay cheap you get cheap.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by gasbag1 »

digits_ wrote:
gasbag1 wrote:Large fines will be levied for violations.
To whom? The crew, the company or the passenger?
This was over 10 years ago a Captain was fined $5,000.00 for leaving the aircraft on a turn while bonded. And many heavy fines for the Company as for an individual you can always be incarcerated. Testing the CBSA can have serious consequences.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by av8ts »

gasbag1 wrote:
digits_ wrote:
gasbag1 wrote:Large fines will be levied for violations.
To whom? The crew, the company or the passenger?
This was over 10 years ago a Captain was fined $5,000.00 for leaving the aircraft on a turn while bonded. And many heavy fines for the Company as for an individual you can always be incarcerated. Testing the CBSA can have serious consequences.
Irrelevant to this flight. Customs was available in YOW
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by rookiepilot »

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ai ... -1.4240405

AT's response to the the CTA: "It wasn't OUR fault".

:lol:
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by complexintentions »

rookiepilot,

Admittedly, I am at a disadvantage here, because I don't know (or care) what the f$ck you do for a living, and thus cannot try and find a forum that pertains to that field, if it exists, and then proceed to lecture you on how to do your job from an equally uninformed viewpoint as you do mine. Alas. Unlike you, I do not judge the precise actions of the crew of Air Transat on that day, as I was not there, and choose to base my speculation of what happened on personal experience, not the never-inaccurate, never-sensationalist-or-biased media reporting of aviation. *cough*

The crux of your article seems to be that either Air Transat management or the Ottawa Airport Authority dropped the ball and both blame the other. And if I have to choose between who I find more trustworthy, competent, or credible: a private company with a profit motive and obviously only financial and PR downside to this delay? Or a quasi-privatized, unaccountable unelected bloated entity like an airport authority in Canada, hmmm...? My own reading between the lines tells me that more likely YOW was dragging their feet to make the point that AT shouldn't be using third-party services over their (YOW's) own services. Don't outright ignore them - that would get people angry at you, and probably be legally actionable - but keep AT at the back of the line, let 'em wait. I mean hey, it's not like an entitled employee group in Canada would ever use the public's misery for leverage, is it? That would be unheard of! lol Unions are MASTERS at this sort of tactic.

The YOW statement trying to distance themselves from the refuelling and handling arrangements is disingenuous - they may not deal directly with the airlines but they most certainly have their finger on the scale as to priority of access and who gets what! Just ask yourself WHAT or HOW would Air Transat gain from purposely inconveniencing their pax? If you think they honestly believe that saving a few bucks is worth it for this media shitstorm you'd have to be a bit thick. AT is not exactly a new entrant to the market.

So I'll leave y'all to your ruminations of that flight and just summarize what will happen should you find yourself a passenger on a flight I am responsible for that ends up in an unfortunate delay like this.

If you are in genuine medical need of assistance, (because apparently, the threshold for human survivability is now six unexpected hours in an aircraft, and Ottawa is of course, located in sub-Saharan Africa, and an airliner is of course, exactly like a parked car, with temperatures that "steadily rose to above 23C", *gasp*), I will certainly avail every possible resource to help you. I will not (unlike this Air Transat captain, according to your vast expertise) sit idly by, callously disregarding your near-death status, not "doing his job".

If you call 911 because you're upset and thirsty, I couldn't care less - it has nothing to do with "usurping anyone's authority", I just will hope to see you legally charged, as you should be, for using an important service as you say, "frivolously".

However, if you choose to disregard or disobey the instructions of the crew doing their very best to look after you, and deploy a slide, thus endangering the safety of the rest of the passengers, I will do everything in my power to make sure you reap the maximum consequences of your actions. I'm sure you'll understand, since a constant theme of yours is preaching about accountability.

Now, I won't make some pompous statement like "I trust that will be the last word on the subject" harrumph harrumph, since you already did that earlier. But it's an absolutely beautiful morning here in Prague, and on a hot day in summer there are few things in the world more stirring to observe than Czech women strolling around Charles Bridge. So I can assure you this will be MY last word on this thread. :mrgreen:

Toodles.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by Spaceshuttle »

That would be good! Enjoy the pilsner
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by av8ts »

Which ground handling service is owned by the YOW airport?
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by rookiepilot »

Hmmm.

Trying to see where I advocated ever pulling a slide in a post.

When you resort to distorting people's quotes:

You lose.

:mrgreen:
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Re: PAX stuck on ground for 6 hours, AT flight

Post by photofly »

Eric Janson wrote:Same here - I'd try filing Sabotage charges against anyone who did this. Very serious offense under ICAO Regulations and covered under International Law not some useless PC laws that give people a slap on the wrist.

Those of you thinking that blowing a slide is in any way acceptable might want to reconsider.

You really don't want to run into my "Zero Tolerance" wall.
The captain rightfully has a lot of authority on board, while the doors are shut. Does the airline really extend the courtesy as far as allowing the captain to decide days or weeks later what charges might be brought and against whom?

The airline itself might not want to push things, if the defence would introduce into evidence the videos of shit and pee piling up on the AT-branded lavatory floors (do airplane toilets flush without the APU?) and I can be quite eloquent about the conditions with no water in the 40° heat, the cabin foetid with smells of children's diarrhoea and vomit, and hour upon hour of broken promises from the cockpit about when things would improve.

It's easy for both sides, after the fact, to look back, and say, hey, it was "only" six hours. Just sit it out, relax. But imagine four hours in, and with no resolution in progress, who's to say then how long it was going to last? Six hours seems crazy enough; there was no reason *not* to imagine it stacking up to ten, or twelve.

I'm not comforted, either, by comments that the crew suffered just the same. Quite the opposite, in fact. If the crew aren't able to look after their own comfort I have no reason to imagine that they're able to look after mine. At some point you - everyone - has to take charge of their own situation. It's just a matter of when.

So no, Eric, sorry - there are lots of reasons to consider, and reconsider - but nothing that you (hypothetically) threaten me with here weighs heavily with me.

And I have to ask more about the Zero Tolerance wall - did you make Mexico pay for it? :-)
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Re: PAX stuck on ground for 6 hours, AT flight

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote:
Eric Janson wrote:Same here - I'd try filing Sabotage charges against anyone who did this. Very serious offense under ICAO Regulations and covered under International Law not some useless PC laws that give people a slap on the wrist.

Those of you thinking that blowing a slide is in any way acceptable might want to reconsider.

You really don't want to run into my "Zero Tolerance" wall.
The captain rightfully has a lot of authority on board, while the doors are shut. Does the airline really extend the courtesy as far as allowing the captain to decide days or weeks later what charges might be brought and against whom?

The airline itself might not want to push things, if the defence would introduce into evidence the videos of shit and pee piling up on the AT-branded lavatory floors (do airplane toilets flush without the APU?) and I can be quite eloquent about the conditions with no water in the 40° heat, the cabin foetid with smells of children's diarrhoea and vomit, and hour upon hour of broken promises from the cockpit about when things would improve.

It's easy for both sides, after the fact, to look back, and say, hey, it was "only" six hours. Just sit it out, relax. But imagine four hours in, and with no resolution in progress, who's to say then how long it was going to last? Six hours seems crazy enough; there was no reason *not* to imagine it stacking up to ten, or twelve.

I'm not comforted, either, by comments that the crew suffered just the same. Quite the opposite, in fact. If the crew aren't able to look after their own comfort I have no reason to imagine that they're able to look after mine. At some point you - everyone - has to take charge of their own situation. It's just a matter of when.

So no, Eric, sorry - there are lots of reasons to consider, and reconsider - but nothing that you (hypothetically) threaten me with here weighs heavily with me.

And I have to ask more about the Zero Tolerance wall - did you make Mexico pay for it? :-)
Again I ask -- threats are fine but if someone dies in a future incident, which isn't impossible to conceive one day, are you Captains exerting authority, prepared to face the full consequences?

Or does accountability only run one way?
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by Old fella »

"I'm not comforted, either, by comments that the crew suffered just the same. Quite the opposite, in fact. If the crew aren't able to look after their own comfort I have no reason to imagine that they're able to look after mine. At some point you - everyone - has to take charge of their own situation. It's just a matter of when."

Correct as I see the above commentary in that here in Canada you are permitted, indeed have a right to defend your actions. In order to suffer consequences, you have to be guilty of a specific charge levied against you. Guilt vs innocence is decided in a court of law, nowhere else. It just may be that AT and the State recognize there will be a rigorous defence by those who wanted" to take charge of their own situation " in dealing with circumstances that the defendants believe was, well outside and beyond the norm.
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Re: PAX stuck on ground for 6 hours, AT flight

Post by Eric Janson »

photofly wrote:
Eric Janson wrote:Same here - I'd try filing Sabotage charges against anyone who did this. Very serious offense under ICAO Regulations and covered under International Law not some useless PC laws that give people a slap on the wrist.

Those of you thinking that blowing a slide is in any way acceptable might want to reconsider.

You really don't want to run into my "Zero Tolerance" wall.
The captain rightfully has a lot of authority on board, while the doors are shut. Does the airline really extend the courtesy as far as allowing the captain to decide days or weeks later what charges might be brought and against whom?

The airline itself might not want to push things, if the defence would introduce into evidence the videos of shit and pee piling up on the AT-branded lavatory floors (do airplane toilets flush without the APU?) and I can be quite eloquent about the conditions with no water in the 40° heat, the cabin foetid with smells of children's diarrhoea and vomit, and hour upon hour of broken promises from the cockpit about when things would improve.

It's easy for both sides, after the fact, to look back, and say, hey, it was "only" six hours. Just sit it out, relax. But imagine four hours in, and with no resolution in progress, who's to say then how long it was going to last? Six hours seems crazy enough; there was no reason *not* to imagine it stacking up to ten, or twelve.

I'm not comforted, either, by comments that the crew suffered just the same. Quite the opposite, in fact. If the crew aren't able to look after their own comfort I have no reason to imagine that they're able to look after mine. At some point you - everyone - has to take charge of their own situation. It's just a matter of when.

So no, Eric, sorry - there are lots of reasons to consider, and reconsider - but nothing that you (hypothetically) threaten me with here weighs heavily with me.

And I have to ask more about the Zero Tolerance wall - did you make Mexico pay for it? :-)

Airlines are generally very PR conscious - mine certainly is.

I have seen a reluctance in the past to take any actual action - it depends on the seriousness of the event.

I have offloaded people in the past - never heard a word from the company.


One thing I should add - I have never had any formal training in Public Relations, making speeches or dealing with passengers. All my experience comes from real world experience and things I've picked up from others.

Very few companies do any kind of training in this field - apart from a few handouts from time to time.

I'll be the first to say I've made my share of mistakes over the years dealing with various situations.

The best solution may not always be obvious.

One thing I have learned is that you need to tell the truth - however embarrassing/unfortunate that may be.

The other important thing to do is to continually communicate with the passengers every 15 minutes or so - even if there is nothing new to say.


The Captains Authority and Responsibility is clearly defined under ICAO (International Law).

Annex 2.

In addition when you buy a ticket there are 'conditions of carriage' that you agree to. Might by a good idea if more people read these - it does not allow people to do whatever they want on board an aircraft.

Then there's the Montreal Convention. Also part of ICAO Annex 17.
The Convention criminalises the following behaviour:

1. Committing an act of violence against a person on board an aircraft in flight if it is likely to endanger the safety of the aircraft;

2. Destroying an aircraft being serviced or damaging such an aircraft in such a way that renders it incapable of flight or which is likely to endanger its safety in flight;

3. Placing or causing to be placed on an aircraft a device or substance which is likely to destroy or cause damage to an aircraft;

4. Destroying or damaging air navigation facilities or interfering with their operation if it is likely to endanger the safety of aircraft;

5. Communicating information which is known to be false, thereby endangering the safety of an aircraft in flight;

Attempting any of 1–5; and
Being an accomplice to any of 1–6.

As I've said before I would never intentionally leave passengers on board for 6 hours in the situation(s) being discussed.

That's something no Captain would intentionally do.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by photofly »

If you read paragraph 2 it refers only to aircraft being serviced, which this one wasn't.

Conditions of carriage are a civil contract; if the airline wants to talk to me after the event about a suit for breach, I'm ready for it. My obligations to be an obedient passenger are very very strong, but they're not unlimited.

Remember this guy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JetBlue_f ... t_incident

He ended up (only) serving a year of probation on a misdemeanor charge of attempted fourth-degree criminal mischief, when all was said and done. And he didn't have an excuse that a reasonable lawyer could work with.

I certainly don't blame the captain for the delay, by the way. Reading the documentation the airline posted I would say 100% it's the airline's fault, for not having in place robust enough refuelling procedures at diversionary sites.
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Re: PAX stuck on ground for 6 hours, AT flight

Post by digits_ »

Eric Janson wrote:
In addition when you buy a ticket there are 'conditions of carriage' that you agree to. Might by a good idea if more people read these - it does not allow people to do whatever they want on board an aircraft.
If the information in the media is correct, their tariff said passengers have to be deplaned after 1.5 hours. The conditions go both ways.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by RFN »

if you have the patience to read this all the way (which you do, if you have the time to comment all about it on avcanada), it will shed some light on what happened in YOW.

This document is publicly available on the CTA website.
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