Air Transat YOW
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- Old fella
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Re: Air Transat YOW
Of course AT will get over this embarrassing situation, bet ''tis forgotten in short order. Nothing a very good discounted vacation package wouldn't cure and perhaps AT has that just in the nick of time. Even the most ardent " emergency chute and door" poppers of the Six hour duration would be in there like a pair of dirty shorts if the price was real good. Our good buds Photofly and Rookiepilot........ I can seem them now crawling around the hills of Siena quaffing quality Chianti Classico and Brunello di Montalcino- the six hr taramac be dammed- on a steeply discounted AT package. AT does go to Rome which is south of the quaffing area in question , bet you knew that though.
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Re: Air Transat YOW
That's not correct - the term 'servicing' refers to getting an aircraft ready for flight.photofly wrote:It's clear it refers to an airplane undergoing maintenance. Not one with passengers on board whose engines are shut down because the crew ran the tanks dry.Eric Janson wrote: I'm not a legal expert but it seems to me that paragraph 2 refers to a parked aircraft with engines shut down.
This includes things like Catering/Cleaning/Fuelling and is normally done with the aircraft parked at a stand or gate.
This can be done in combination with boarding passengers or with passengers already on board.
Always fly a stable approach - it's the only stability you'll find in this business
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Re: Air Transat YOW
TFTMB heavy, I appreciate your posts, I wish there were a "like" function. I honestly think the ball was dropped in this situation by somebody somewhere, but overall you should be proud to work for Air Transat, as they do a great job day in and day out. After all the finger pointing is done, hopefully we can find out what could have been done better to avoid a situation like this from happening again.
- rookiepilot
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Re: Air Transat YOW
Actually I'm in Europe right now, OF.Old fella wrote:Of course AT will get over this embarrassing situation, bet ''tis forgotten in short order. Nothing a very good discounted vacation package wouldn't cure and perhaps AT has that just in the nick of time. Even the most ardent " emergency chute and door" poppers of the Six hour duration would be in there like a pair of dirty shorts if the price was real good. Our good buds Photofly and Rookiepilot........ I can seem them now crawling around the hills of Siena quaffing quality Chianti Classico and Brunello di Montalcino- the six hr taramac be dammed- on a steeply discounted AT package. AT does go to Rome which is south of the quaffing area in question , bet you knew that though.
I don't fly AT, among a few other airlines. Far too many issues for my liking, and time and aggravation are worth far more than saving 50 bucks. I don't even consider them, even if it was free.
As I've said before, almost every European and Asian airline trumps the best of anything Canada has to offer, in service, reliability, courtesy, and safety too. And that's a fact.
As for this, we should have European regs. This kind of thing doesn't happen in Europe (despite far, far more air traffic) because the fines levied would be through the roof.
Canada is spineless as they don't either enact regs nor enforce those in place.
Re: Air Transat YOW
You don't spend a lot of time on Ryan Air, or Easyjet, then.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
- rookiepilot
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Re: Air Transat YOW
Correct. It's called trains, when practical. Far more interesting, and civilized too. Try it sometime.photofly wrote:You don't spend a lot of time on Ryan Air, or Easyjet, then.
I did do one easyjet flight cause it was direct. Pay for literally everything, but friendly, on time, no issues.
Re: Air Transat YOW
After four decades of British Rail and the London Underground - no thanks.rookiepilot wrote:Correct. It's called trains, when practical. Far more interesting, and civilized too. Try it sometime.photofly wrote:You don't spend a lot of time on Ryan Air, or Easyjet, then.
I did do one easyjet flight cause it was direct. Pay for literally everything, but friendly, on time, no issues.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
- complexintentions
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Re: Air Transat YOW
Let me guess...you were banned for pulling the emergency brake handle in a hissy fit?
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.
Re: Air Transat YOW
Not yet.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
- rookiepilot
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Re: Air Transat YOW
Hearing today:
http://globalnews.ca/news/3709996/air-t ... s-testify/
http://www.bnn.ca/ground-crews-detail-d ... s-1.843948
OTTAWA -- The captain of one of two Air Transat flights that was forced to sit for hours on a sweltering Ottawa tarmac last month said Thursday he considered keeping passengers aboard the delayed aircraft to be the lesser of two evils.
Allowing passengers to disembark would have only made additional delays more likely, as opposed to the 30 minutes he was repeatedly being told it would take to refuel, Yves Saint-Laurent told Canadian Transportation Agency hearings in Ottawa.
What's more, it would have taken additional hours to get everyone off the plane and then find a fleet of buses to transport them to a hotel for the night or to Montreal, the plane's ultimate destination.
Denis Lussier, who was piloting the other flight, said he, too, was repeatedly told the wait to refuel would only be 30 minutes more. Both pilots cited a series of circumstances beyond their control -- other planes jumping the refuelling queue, as well as delays getting and connecting external power generators -- that only made matters worse.
Saint-Laurent said he would have made different decisions had he known the delay would last more than three hours. Nonetheless, he said, most passengers expressed their gratitude to him after they arrived in Montreal.
"The next day, I saw what I would call the media circus," Saint-Laurent told the hearing.
"I was shocked, surprised because I would say that most of the passengers who left the aircraft in Montreal that night said, 'Thank you."'
[/b]
This is a good quote:
"The experience of the conditions on board the grounded flights, however, was a “matter of perception,” said Matthew Jackson, the director of flight safety for Air Transat, when asked whether the pilots were aware of how passengers were feeling.
“If I’m managing a delay and I’m talking to a passenger who’s a very nervous flyer, a 15-minute delay may be a terrible thing for that passenger,” Jackson told the hearing. “Their perception is different than the frequent flyer … who’s used to delays.”
The flight safety director further suggested the pilots might have even been hotter than some passengers on account of the polyester uniforms they wear.
“I’m not traveling in shorts and sandals and a T-shirt,” he said. “So I think I would probably feel the heat a little bit more than some travellers.”
During Wednesday’s testimony, passengers told officials they would have given anything to be allowed off the planes, even if only to face further delays or long drives home.
Jackson, Air Transat’s flight safety director, said there was almost no way to accomplish that safely.
“The only way I’m going to let 360 people out on the runway is … because I have a fire on board the aircraft or a bomb threat,” he said. “I’m not deplaning on a runway for fun.”
from Cbc:
"It would have been a logistical and financial challenge — but not an impossibility — to stop in Ottawa, he said".
TS507 eventually spent five hours on the Ottawa airport's tarmac, with passengers telling the hearing there was no air conditioning on board and people were throwing up from the heat and anxiety.
Saint-Laurent said otherwise, claiming the air conditioning was working for all but a minute or two when they were on the ground.
Besides, Saint-Laurent said, no passengers asked him to get off. Flight director Julie Clermont said the same thing.
http://globalnews.ca/news/3709996/air-t ... s-testify/
http://www.bnn.ca/ground-crews-detail-d ... s-1.843948
OTTAWA -- The captain of one of two Air Transat flights that was forced to sit for hours on a sweltering Ottawa tarmac last month said Thursday he considered keeping passengers aboard the delayed aircraft to be the lesser of two evils.
Allowing passengers to disembark would have only made additional delays more likely, as opposed to the 30 minutes he was repeatedly being told it would take to refuel, Yves Saint-Laurent told Canadian Transportation Agency hearings in Ottawa.
What's more, it would have taken additional hours to get everyone off the plane and then find a fleet of buses to transport them to a hotel for the night or to Montreal, the plane's ultimate destination.
Denis Lussier, who was piloting the other flight, said he, too, was repeatedly told the wait to refuel would only be 30 minutes more. Both pilots cited a series of circumstances beyond their control -- other planes jumping the refuelling queue, as well as delays getting and connecting external power generators -- that only made matters worse.
Saint-Laurent said he would have made different decisions had he known the delay would last more than three hours. Nonetheless, he said, most passengers expressed their gratitude to him after they arrived in Montreal.
"The next day, I saw what I would call the media circus," Saint-Laurent told the hearing.
"I was shocked, surprised because I would say that most of the passengers who left the aircraft in Montreal that night said, 'Thank you."'
[/b]
This is a good quote:
"The experience of the conditions on board the grounded flights, however, was a “matter of perception,” said Matthew Jackson, the director of flight safety for Air Transat, when asked whether the pilots were aware of how passengers were feeling.
“If I’m managing a delay and I’m talking to a passenger who’s a very nervous flyer, a 15-minute delay may be a terrible thing for that passenger,” Jackson told the hearing. “Their perception is different than the frequent flyer … who’s used to delays.”
The flight safety director further suggested the pilots might have even been hotter than some passengers on account of the polyester uniforms they wear.
“I’m not traveling in shorts and sandals and a T-shirt,” he said. “So I think I would probably feel the heat a little bit more than some travellers.”
During Wednesday’s testimony, passengers told officials they would have given anything to be allowed off the planes, even if only to face further delays or long drives home.
Jackson, Air Transat’s flight safety director, said there was almost no way to accomplish that safely.
“The only way I’m going to let 360 people out on the runway is … because I have a fire on board the aircraft or a bomb threat,” he said. “I’m not deplaning on a runway for fun.”
from Cbc:
"It would have been a logistical and financial challenge — but not an impossibility — to stop in Ottawa, he said".
TS507 eventually spent five hours on the Ottawa airport's tarmac, with passengers telling the hearing there was no air conditioning on board and people were throwing up from the heat and anxiety.
Saint-Laurent said otherwise, claiming the air conditioning was working for all but a minute or two when they were on the ground.
Besides, Saint-Laurent said, no passengers asked him to get off. Flight director Julie Clermont said the same thing.
Last edited by rookiepilot on Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Air Transat YOW
"Almost no way to accomplish that safely."
Interesting choice of words.
Interesting choice of words.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Air Transat YOW
I'm sure none of the passengers asked the captain for a drink either. That's usually the stuff you ask flight attendants, no?rookiepilot wrote:
Besides, Saint-Laurent said, no passengers asked him to get off. Flight director Julie Clermont said the same thing.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Air Transat YOW
Wouldn't an FA advise the flight director in that case?digits_ wrote:I'm sure none of the passengers asked the captain for a drink either. That's usually the stuff you ask flight attendants, no?rookiepilot wrote:
Besides, Saint-Laurent said, no passengers asked him to get off. Flight director Julie Clermont said the same thing.
Re: Air Transat YOW
Hopefully, yes, but the quotes indicate that they use the fact that none of the passengers asked them directly to get of the plane, as an argument that things weren't bad.Braun wrote:Wouldn't an FA advise the flight director in that case?digits_ wrote:I'm sure none of the passengers asked the captain for a drink either. That's usually the stuff you ask flight attendants, no?rookiepilot wrote:
Besides, Saint-Laurent said, no passengers asked him to get off. Flight director Julie Clermont said the same thing.
They'd never ask them directly. How would you even talk to the flight director as a passenger?
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
- rookiepilot
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Re: Air Transat YOW
Passenger side of things:
https://www.thestar.com/business/2017/0 ... elays.html
OTTAWA—Passengers who were trapped aboard two Air Transat jets earlier this summer described hours on end of sweltering heat, a lack of water and the stench of vomit in the cabin as a federal agency began hearings Wednesday into their ordeal.
One witness said she saw flight attendants outside on the Ottawa tarmac taking selfies alongside one stranded plane amid widespread confusion over the July 31 delays — six hours in one case, five in the other.
Another witness described a young boy running down the aisle for the toilets in the rear of the plane, but vomiting in the aisle and on passengers before he could make it to the bathrooms.
Read more:Passengers confined to plane on Ottawa runway for six hours, woman says
One by one, passengers told members of the Canadian Transportation Agency, the agency investigating the incidents, that they would have given anything to be allowed off the planes, even if only to face further delays or long drives home.
They described feeling treated like cargo by the airline, rather than as human beings and accused the carrier of being more concerned about getting the planes in the air than it was about the health and safety of its customers.
https://www.thestar.com/business/2017/0 ... elays.html
OTTAWA—Passengers who were trapped aboard two Air Transat jets earlier this summer described hours on end of sweltering heat, a lack of water and the stench of vomit in the cabin as a federal agency began hearings Wednesday into their ordeal.
One witness said she saw flight attendants outside on the Ottawa tarmac taking selfies alongside one stranded plane amid widespread confusion over the July 31 delays — six hours in one case, five in the other.
Another witness described a young boy running down the aisle for the toilets in the rear of the plane, but vomiting in the aisle and on passengers before he could make it to the bathrooms.
Read more:Passengers confined to plane on Ottawa runway for six hours, woman says
One by one, passengers told members of the Canadian Transportation Agency, the agency investigating the incidents, that they would have given anything to be allowed off the planes, even if only to face further delays or long drives home.
They described feeling treated like cargo by the airline, rather than as human beings and accused the carrier of being more concerned about getting the planes in the air than it was about the health and safety of its customers.
- RRJetPilot
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Re: Air Transat YOW
rookiepilot wrote:Passenger side of things:
https://www.thestar.com/business/2017/0 ... elays.html
OTTAWA—Passengers who were trapped aboard two Air Transat jets earlier this summer described hours on end of sweltering heat, a lack of water and the stench of vomit in the cabin as a federal agency began hearings Wednesday into their ordeal.
One witness said she saw flight attendants outside on the Ottawa tarmac taking selfies alongside one stranded plane amid widespread confusion over the July 31 delays — six hours in one case, five in the other.
Another witness described a young boy running down the aisle for the toilets in the rear of the plane, but vomiting in the aisle and on passengers before he could make it to the bathrooms.
Read more:Passengers confined to plane on Ottawa runway for six hours, woman says
One by one, passengers told members of the Canadian Transportation Agency, the agency investigating the incidents, that they would have given anything to be allowed off the planes, even if only to face further delays or long drives home.
They described feeling treated like cargo by the airline, rather than as human beings and accused the carrier of being more concerned about getting the planes in the air than it was about the health and safety of its customers.
These are passengers looking to make some money from the situation.
Human nature.
I watched the entire thing the last 2 days. Funny how when the emergency services arrived the passengers were asked if they wanted to get off and the declined and wanted to stay to get to Montreal. LOL
- rookiepilot
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Re: Air Transat YOW
Can you provide a quote that the passengers testifying are demanding more money, and also that passengers declined to get off when (if) asked?RRJetPilot wrote:
These are passengers looking to make some money from the situation.
Human nature.
I watched the entire thing the last 2 days. Funny how when the emergency services arrived the passengers were asked if they wanted to get off and the declined and wanted to stay to get to Montreal. LOL
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Re: Air Transat YOW
The very person who called 911 first refused to identify himself, only did when his number was read on the P/A and then kept changing the reason he had called 911. He then declined to deplane after he was offered to do so and remained another 2 hours + on the aircraft, with his family until the aircraft arrived in YUL.rookiepilot wrote:Can you provide a quote that the passengers testifying are demanding more money, and also that passengers declined to get off when (if) asked?RRJetPilot wrote:
These are passengers looking to make some money from the situation.
Human nature.
I watched the entire thing the last 2 days. Funny how when the emergency services arrived the passengers were asked if they wanted to get off and the declined and wanted to stay to get to Montreal. LOL
FACT.
Re: Air Transat YOW
Wow.Gilles Hudicourt wrote:The very person who called 911 first refused to identify himself, only did when his number was read on the P/A and then kept changing the reason he had called 911. He then declined to deplane after he was offered to do so and remained another 2 hours + on the aircraft, with his family until the aircraft arrived in YUL.rookiepilot wrote:Can you provide a quote that the passengers testifying are demanding more money, and also that passengers declined to get off when (if) asked?RRJetPilot wrote:
These are passengers looking to make some money from the situation.
Human nature.
I watched the entire thing the last 2 days. Funny how when the emergency services arrived the passengers were asked if they wanted to get off and the declined and wanted to stay to get to Montreal. LOL
FACT.
Re: Air Transat YOW
True but at the same time if I am in a situation that is as horrible as people describe I would first ask FA and then his "supervisor"..I wouldn't let myself die because an FA didn't let me get off. I mean, it was bad enough to call 911 but not to ask to talk to someone in charge?digits_ wrote:Hopefully, yes, but the quotes indicate that they use the fact that none of the passengers asked them directly to get of the plane, as an argument that things weren't bad.Braun wrote:Wouldn't an FA advise the flight director in that case?digits_ wrote:
I'm sure none of the passengers asked the captain for a drink either. That's usually the stuff you ask flight attendants, no?
They'd never ask them directly. How would you even talk to the flight director as a passenger?