Georgian Upgrades

Discuss topics relating to airlines.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

Message
Author
User avatar
infiniteregulus
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:46 am

Georgian Upgrades

#1 Post by infiniteregulus » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:31 pm

So I'm hearing Georgian is now upgrading their inexperienced cadets to Captain at only 1500h and no ATPL??!! WTF is wrong with this industry, and most importantly, us? I have family and friends that fly on those planes, and now it's gotten to the point that I'm legitimately getting concerned for their safety. At least before there were standards for experience, but now they're just throwing anyone in the seats? This s#!@ has to stop! Someone please tell me this rumour is false :prayer:
---------- ADS -----------

aviator242
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:29 pm

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#2 Post by aviator242 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:48 pm

I can assure you safety is not affected. I know these pilots personally and would feel fine in the back with them at the controls. There is a shortage coming, I think your going to see quicker upgrades in the future. To call them inexperienced and unsafe is out of line. We all need to have some respect for eachother in this industry.
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
HansDietrich
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 206
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:33 am

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#3 Post by HansDietrich » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:03 pm

Oh man. I have 3000 hrs TT and I have never flown an RJ before. I don't know how safe I would consider myself being in the left seat of an RJ flying in the US. I do have about 500 hrs B200 left seat experience. It's hard to say. The only certain thing is that experience is getting less and less common in Canada.
---------- ADS -----------

fsantana
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#4 Post by fsantana » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:05 pm

I’m one of the upgrades on the RJ.
I've got 4,000 TT with ATPL (TC & FAA) plus CPL Helicopter.

Georgian is not fooling around.
Rest assure that your friends and family are in good hands.

You read all kind of stuff here.
---------- ADS -----------
Last edited by fsantana on Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
short bus
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 499
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:57 am

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#5 Post by short bus » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:08 pm

Good luck being an RJ capt without an atpl. Did you eat a lot of paint chips as a kid?
---------- ADS -----------

Diadem
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 617
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: A sigma left of the top of the bell curve

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#6 Post by Diadem » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:30 pm

short bus wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:08 pm
Good luck being an RJ capt without an atpl. Did you eat a lot of paint chips as a kid?
You know they also operate 1900s, right? And the 1900 is now technically a single-pilot aircraft, so legally the only requirement to be PIC is this: "No person shall act as the pilot-in-command of an aircraft with passengers on board in IFR flight unless the person has acquired at least 1,200 hours of flight time as a pilot". 704.108 (3)
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
short bus
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 499
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:57 am

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#7 Post by short bus » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:05 pm

Whoa there Captain buzzkill. Way to ruin a potential back and forth with some "alternative facts". Go lick the glue stick
---------- ADS -----------

Diadem
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 617
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: A sigma left of the top of the bell curve

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#8 Post by Diadem » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:28 pm

short bus wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:05 pm
Whoa there Captain buzzkill. Way to ruin a potential back and forth with some "alternative facts". Go lick the glue stick
What exactly do you mean by that, champ? You think the CARs are "alternative facts"?
---------- ADS -----------

nightbird
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:47 pm

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#9 Post by nightbird » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:04 am

The upgrade on the RJ is 3500TT and 500 on type.
---------- ADS -----------

gtanorth
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:46 am

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#10 Post by gtanorth » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:57 am

Georgian has one of the best training programs in the country for the B1900. They have been working with mentor pilots for almost 15 years now and have pretty much figured out how and when to upgrade them.
---------- ADS -----------

gtanorth
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:46 am

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#11 Post by gtanorth » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:58 am

HansDietrich wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:03 pm
Oh man. I have 3000 hrs TT and I have never flown an RJ before. I don't know how safe I would consider myself being in the left seat of an RJ flying in the US. I do have about 500 hrs B200 left seat experience. It's hard to say. The only certain thing is that experience is getting less and less common in Canada.
The cadets are on the Beech
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Stan Darsh
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:44 pm
Location: America's Hat

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#12 Post by Stan Darsh » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:18 am

Wow, this is some good stuff guys. Keep the insights coming - " I have 3000 hrs and no time on the type in question, yet I would feel uncomfortable jumping in to a PIC seat" " Wow, 1500hr upgrade on a 705 jet with no ATPL - interesting times!" " Hey, I'm wrong and also throwing insults at you - have a discussion with me!"

:prayer:
---------- ADS -----------

iflyroads
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:50 am

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#13 Post by iflyroads » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:21 am

From what I hear it's 1500+ hours total time with atleast 1000 on type. You have to have good standing and are evaluated with an interview that covers technical knowledge/CRM/pdm. As well as a good recommendations from senior captains.

Jazz has had 1700tt captains on the classic and q from the jazz cadet programs. It's just the nature of the industry right now.

I'm not a ggn defender by any means but just my 2 cents.
---------- ADS -----------

gtanorth
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:46 am

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#14 Post by gtanorth » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:33 am

Stan Darsh wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:18 am
Wow, this is some good stuff guys. Keep the insights coming - " I have 3000 hrs and no time on the type in question, yet I would feel uncomfortable jumping in to a PIC seat" " Wow, 1500hr upgrade on a 705 jet with no ATPL - interesting times!" " Hey, I'm wrong and also throwing insults at you - have a discussion with me!"

:prayer:

As stated already - these upgrades are on the Beech not CRJ. Perhaps 3000 hrs is not always equal...
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Stan Darsh
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:44 pm
Location: America's Hat

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#15 Post by Stan Darsh » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:08 am

Yes, I'm simply pointing out the inanity of the commentary in this thread. A 1500hr upugrade in a 1900 isn't ideal, but an established mentor program and a robust training department such as GGN's should be able to cope. There are quite a few sub 2000hr 704 PICs ripping around in outfits with FAR less infrastructure and support than AC Express.
---------- ADS -----------

FL-280
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:45 pm

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#16 Post by FL-280 » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:33 am

Stan Darsh wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:08 am
an established mentor program and a robust training department such as GGN's should be able to cope.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Wow, I had to read that like 3 times. I'm still laughing
---------- ADS -----------

schnitzel2k3
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#17 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:47 am

Most of these pilots have 1300 hrs on type flying the same routes day in and day out, and have acquired experience directly related to these routes over a condescened period of time. The 1900 is a big King Air and I could see a 1500 hr pilot with over 1000 hrs on type being ok to fly it from the left.

I would call them experienced, relating only to the GGN operation. Pull them out of their GGN / AC ops comfort zone and send them oceanic, into the mountains or god forbid to a gravel strip away from the safety and comfort of tarmac and deice bays and I think life gets a little more complex.

The Jazz experience pool is draining as well and when the PML switches gears again, you'll see the same but on -8 and the bigger RJs.

I'm hearing the same thing out west with companies like CMA and out east with EVAS. At least that type of talk is happening.

Fingers crossed things stay safe. All you need is a Colgan crash in Canada to really spur the Governement into introducing a similar 1500 hour min right seat rule and you'll see those portions of the industry come to schreeching halt. Not that I would ever wish that upon anyone, but that's where we are inching.

My 2 cents.

S.
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
infiniteregulus
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:46 am

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#18 Post by infiniteregulus » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:58 am

I should clarify. I was in fact referring to the Beech, not the RJ. And to state that GGN has a robust training and mentor program? Come on now. Some of their training captains are guys with less than 6 months in the seat, and there's no such mentor program in effect, anymore. They plop a 200h cadet with any line captain with no guidance. Training program? I hear they're pumping guys out faster than they know what airplane they're on. Crap training plus unguided training captains plus inexperience plus rushed operation = flying straight through all the holes in the swiss cheese. These upgraded cadets can't get ATPLs cause they're literally not old enough to acquire one! They're fresh highschool students flying command positions (graduated 2014). Add the one year of PPL and CPL training, and that's less than 2 years of experience total. I'm sorry but that is just wrong...
---------- ADS -----------

DanWEC
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#19 Post by DanWEC » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:32 pm

At least they pay well though. They've figured out the root cause of retention issues, and don't need to reactively strategize all kinds of other programs to solve it.

Oh, wait.
---------- ADS -----------
Meow

aviator242
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:29 pm

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#20 Post by aviator242 » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:12 pm

infiniteregulus wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:58 am
I should clarify. I was in fact referring to the Beech, not the RJ. And to state that GGN has a robust training and mentor program? Come on now. Some of their training captains are guys with less than 6 months in the seat, and there's no such mentor program in effect, anymore. They plop a 200h cadet with any line captain with no guidance. Training program? I hear they're pumping guys out faster than they know what airplane they're on. Crap training plus unguided training captains plus inexperience plus rushed operation = flying straight through all the holes in the swiss cheese. These upgraded cadets can't get ATPLs cause they're literally not old enough to acquire one! They're fresh highschool students flying command positions (graduated 2014). Add the one year of PPL and CPL training, and that's less than 2 years of experience total. I'm sorry but that is just wrong...
And are you speaking from experience or just hearsay? Cause if that's the case I could tell you about just about every operators training program. Get facts straight before posting please
---------- ADS -----------

xlwing
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:37 pm

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#21 Post by xlwing » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:44 pm

aviator242 wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:12 pm
infiniteregulus wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:58 am
I should clarify. I was in fact referring to the Beech, not the RJ. And to state that GGN has a robust training and mentor program? Come on now. Some of their training captains are guys with less than 6 months in the seat, and there's no such mentor program in effect, anymore. They plop a 200h cadet with any line captain with no guidance. Training program? I hear they're pumping guys out faster than they know what airplane they're on. Crap training plus unguided training captains plus inexperience plus rushed operation = flying straight through all the holes in the swiss cheese. These upgraded cadets can't get ATPLs cause they're literally not old enough to acquire one! They're fresh highschool students flying command positions (graduated 2014). Add the one year of PPL and CPL training, and that's less than 2 years of experience total. I'm sorry but that is just wrong...
And are you speaking from experience or just hearsay? Cause if that's the case I could tell you about just about every operators training program. Get facts straight before posting please
I've worked there and can substantiate all of that. Don't know about their graduation dates though haha.
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
infiniteregulus
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:46 am

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#22 Post by infiniteregulus » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:47 pm

Some friends of mine told me this info. Maybe I just didn't want to believe it thus why I asked on here if it were true or not. But it's shaping out to be so.

Got linked their facebook profiles with their grad dates :lol:
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
confusedalot
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 494
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:08 pm
Location: location, location, is what matters

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#23 Post by confusedalot » Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:55 pm

Stating the obvious, of course an RJ left seat is out of reach without an atpl. And also stating the obvious, a king air is not out of reach for a commercial level pilot.

I'm an old guy, and king airs were a luxury in my time, navajos were the norm, king airs were a rare sight. Having said that, I had a whopping total of 1000 hours when I got my single pilot IFR navajo job. Had a whopping 300 hours for aztecs, beech barons, senecas, and so on. That was circa 1981 and on-wards.

When you think about it, not much difference between a navajo and a king air. Yeah I know, blah blah blah, turbine time, only astronauts can do it......the reality is that flying a turbine powered prop is no more difficult than a piston. It is just a bit different and easily adaptable to a piston driver.

So I am not surprised at all that a king air would be an entry level (or almost) aircraft.

Sign of the times though, things are booming. Take advantage of it.
---------- ADS -----------
Attempting to understand the world. I have not succeeded.

veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.

:?

AuxBatOn
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2763
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#24 Post by AuxBatOn » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:41 pm

I have time in Piston, Turboprops and Jets and engine management is generally much easier in Turboprops than pistons, and easier in jets than turboprops.

The relative difficulty with jets when conpared to props is energy management (altitude and airspeed) and staying ahead of the aircraft in busy phases of flight.
---------- ADS -----------
Going for the deck at corner

User avatar
Stan Darsh
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:44 pm
Location: America's Hat

Re: Georgian Upgrades

#25 Post by Stan Darsh » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:33 am

FL-280 wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:33 am
Stan Darsh wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:08 am
an established mentor program and a robust training department such as GGN's should be able to cope.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Wow, I had to read that like 3 times. I'm still laughing
Well, they've been doing it since 2000-whatever so I'd say it's established, no? My point still stands. Glad you could finally decipher it.
---------- ADS -----------

Post Reply

Return to “General Airline Industry Comments”