First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

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CdnPilotsalary
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First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#1 Post by CdnPilotsalary » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:19 am

Am I reading the salary scale for Air Canada on Airline Pilot Central correctly???
Does a first-year 1500 hour American regional FO with a starting salary of 65k USD (= 83K CAD) ... really make more than a fourth year FO at Air Canada???
How is this even possible????? The cost of living in US is lower!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#2 Post by BE20 Driver » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:11 pm

I ran some numbers a while back - for a friend.

A Horizon First Year FO made more than an Encore First Year Captain.

Interesting times for sure.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#3 Post by altiplano » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:25 pm

We badly undersell ourselves in Canada.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#4 Post by DanWEC » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:18 am

Canada has the unique luxury of seeing things before they happen, as trends in the US generally percolate through and end up here after a slight delay. Happened with the housing crisis which we weathered just fine due to being a bit more prepared.

I don't think we will be crushed as hard with the pilot shortage, which, in turn, won't cause wages to rise like they have in the States. With the streaming programs that are being put into place across the board, the talent pool is being partially secured.

I have a project in it's infancy- I'd like to have Canadian Pilots eligible for work in the US in order to alleviate their crewing issues. I'll likely be posting more about it in the upcoming months, but if anyone has any questions, input, or suggestions, please feel free to PM me, I can't do it alone.

Cheers
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#5 Post by yycflyguy » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:40 am

DanWEC wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:18 am
Canada has the unique luxury of seeing things before they happen, as trends in the US generally percolate through and end up here after a slight delay. Happened with the housing crisis which we weathered just fine due to being a bit more prepared.

I don't think we will be crushed as hard with the pilot shortage, which, in turn, won't cause wages to rise like they have in the States. With the streaming programs that are being put into place across the board, the talent pool is being partially secured.

I have a project in it's infancy- I'd like to have Canadian Pilots eligible for work in the US in order to alleviate their crewing issues. I'll likely be posting more about it in the upcoming months, but if anyone has any questions, input, or suggestions, please feel free to PM me, I can't do it alone.

Cheers
The only mechanisms for that to happen would be a change to the Professional Trades list on the TN-1 visa, a company sponsored Visa (costly and unlikely) or the creation of a separate work authorization Visa. I like to think that the current US administration is open to the idea as a pilot shortage would ultimately cost US carriers money but that can only be done through NAFTA. NAFTA includes Mexico. Preliminary discussions between the three countries has already proved to be contentious. I can't see this agreement being agreed to and rapidly passed to allow pilots into the US within the next 24 months. If it is, Mexican pilots may be made available as well if this policy is amended.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#6 Post by aV1aTOr » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:31 pm

As far as your numbers, Airline Pilot Central might not be the best source. My year 4 income at AC was 6 figures as a mainline FO. That's T4 taxable income, not perdiums, pension etc. Rouge guys will do better than that.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#7 Post by confusedalot » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:25 pm

aV1aTOr wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:31 pm
As far as your numbers, Airline Pilot Central might not be the best source. My year 4 income at AC was 6 figures as a mainline FO. That's T4 taxable income, not perdiums, pension etc. Rouge guys will do better than that.
I was told that flat pay of about 50K for 4 years at AC was the norm, and this from AC HR during a feeder airline interview..........

Please tell us how you doubled that rate in your 4th year. Is AC HR lying?
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#8 Post by confusedalot » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:31 pm

CdnPilotsalary wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:19 am
Am I reading the salary scale for Air Canada on Airline Pilot Central correctly???
Does a first-year 1500 hour American regional FO with a starting salary of 65k USD (= 83K CAD) ... really make more than a fourth year FO at Air Canada???
How is this even possible????? The cost of living in US is lower!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The regionals in the US are in fact paying out signing bonuses that range anywhere from 22K to 50K. That is a one shot deal. So yes, first year pay is higher, but second year pay goes back to negotiated rates, that result in a drop of total yearly pay.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#9 Post by groundpilot » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:39 pm

confusedalot wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:25 pm
aV1aTOr wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:31 pm
As far as your numbers, Airline Pilot Central might not be the best source. My year 4 income at AC was 6 figures as a mainline FO. That's T4 taxable income, not perdiums, pension etc. Rouge guys will do better than that.
I was told that flat pay of about 50K for 4 years at AC was the norm, and this from AC HR during a feeder airline interview..........

Please tell us how you doubled that rate in your 4th year. Is AC HR lying?
We are saying that's not true.

FACTS:

First year: $57.73 per hour 51,957 annual with flying absolute min of 77.5 hrs each month
2 63.12 56,808
3 71.93 64,737
4 80.55 72,495

Then add your real amount of flying, OT, and profit sharing which was over $8300 my first year. Then of course per diems.

So then you can see, its going to be more. Should it be more, absolutely
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#10 Post by CdnPilotsalary » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:41 am

confusedalot wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:31 pm
CdnPilotsalary wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:19 am
Am I reading the salary scale for Air Canada on Airline Pilot Central correctly???
Does a first-year 1500 hour American regional FO with a starting salary of 65k USD (= 83K CAD) ... really make more than a fourth year FO at Air Canada???
How is this even possible????? The cost of living in US is lower!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The regionals in the US are in fact paying out signing bonuses that range anywhere from 22K to 50K. That is a one shot deal. So yes, first year pay is higher, but second year pay goes back to negotiated rates, that result in a drop of total yearly pay.
It's not much lower in second year. For example, have a look at Endeavor Air (Delta Connection): http://www.endeavorair.com/pilots
The hourly rate for a second year FO is $59 per credit hour. Multiplying by 1000 for a rough estimate gives a salary of $59,000 USD or $76,000 CAD.
Besides, with the projected 18mo upgrade, a second year FO is most likely already a captain by the end of that year, earning $89 USD/hr or $114,000 CAD/year.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#11 Post by altiplano » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:33 am

If you want to compare with an upgrade you get off flat pay as a new hire.

You could be a Captain at AC in a similar timeframe - junior EMJ & 320 CA currently around seniority 3500.

2nd year 320 CA = ~$192/hr 1/2 D/N
2nd year EMJ CA = ~$157/hr 1/2 D/N

$172,800 or $141,300...

75 hours a month, that's min pay, no OT, no overseas or nav pay, not including profit share, esop, pension, or any other benefits.

That all said, I would rather be comparing wages to US Majors - where we grossly lag - being grateful that I at least make more than an RJ Captain in Atlanta does little for me...
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#12 Post by rudder » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:32 am

altiplano wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:33 am
If you want to compare with an upgrade you get off flat pay as a new hire.

You could be a Captain at AC in a similar timeframe - junior EMJ & 320 CA currently around seniority 3500.

2nd year 320 CA = ~$192/hr 1/2 D/N
2nd year EMJ CA = ~$157/hr 1/2 D/N

$172,800 or $141,300...

75 hours a month, that's min pay, no OT, no overseas or nav pay, not including profit share, esop, pension, or any other benefits.

That all said, I would rather be comparing wages to US Majors - where we grossly lag - being grateful that I at least make more than an RJ Captain in Atlanta does little for me...
That is slightly misleading.

#3500 can hold the last left seat on a roster because 1500+ pilots more senior did not bid for that position. I am guessing that approximately 2-4% of the pilots hired in the last 24 months can hold left seat. And the removal of 6 190’s from the bid with the retention of 6 319’s will tilt upwards the tenure required to hold junior left seat.

Still, impressive that upgrades are coming so quickly for a few who are willing to sit junior reserve. Isn’t the reserve monthly pay guarantee DMM-7?
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#13 Post by confusedalot » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:21 pm

groundpilot wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:39 pm
confusedalot wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:25 pm
aV1aTOr wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:31 pm
As far as your numbers, Airline Pilot Central might not be the best source. My year 4 income at AC was 6 figures as a mainline FO. That's T4 taxable income, not perdiums, pension etc. Rouge guys will do better than that.
I was told that flat pay of about 50K for 4 years at AC was the norm, and this from AC HR during a feeder airline interview..........

Please tell us how you doubled that rate in your 4th year. Is AC HR lying?
We are saying that's not true.

FACTS:

First year: $57.73 per hour 51,957 annual with flying absolute min of 77.5 hrs each month
2 63.12 56,808
3 71.93 64,737
4 80.55 72,495

Then add your real amount of flying, OT, and profit sharing which was over $8300 my first year. Then of course per diems.

So then you can see, its going to be more. Should it be more, absolutely
OK, then air canda hr lied to me on a skyregional flow through interview. They said 50K for 4 years (to their credit, they said a little bit more per year but not by much). Would have tried a little harder if I knew the real figures but did not due to the low pay and not so many years left before mandatory retirement. I figured my last 5 years would be fo on something or another making maybe 130K?
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#14 Post by tailgunner » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:24 am

Confusedalot,
You would have tried harder?...
Wow. Unbelievable. There are hundreds of fellow fliers that would give almost anything to have had an opportunity that you were granted.
You obviously did not do much research on the position that you were interviewing for.
As I read it, I guess you were not successful. Perhaps AC dodged a bullet.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#15 Post by confusedalot » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:18 pm

I was 56 years old at the time, smartass......There comes a time where going back to 50K does not makes sense anymore. And that is what they told me, 50K for 4 years plus or minus some minor incremental pay increases. You do the math.

Jesus.....

Anyways, surprised (and good for those who get it) that the actual scales for the first 4 years have a significantly higher range than advertised, what, 2-3 years ago?

And yes, a 19000 hour pilot who had a good if unstable career peppered by mass layoffs, bankrupties and the like, who still managed to get rehired into left seats MUST be a total jerk, right? I must have some great talent in pulling the wool over the eyes of many.........grow up.

As far as the ability to do research is concerned, probably forgot more than you will ever know.

You asked for it, you got it.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#16 Post by snowcone » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:06 pm

56 years old and you are acting like that on an Internet forum.

I feel sorry for you.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#17 Post by altiplano » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:15 pm

I'm not sure why they would give you the wrong info. Those pay scales were est. 2012.

The pay scale has been well published on multiple threads on this website. People mostly seem happy to answer when asked. I don't mind anyway.

Too bad it didn't seem worth it. It's a pretty good job with lot's of opportunity right now.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#18 Post by confusedalot » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:41 pm

It most definitively is a good job, I've been trying to convince the newcomers to give it a pretty serious look for those who have 25-30 years or more ahead of them, but some think that flying off to the sandbox or asia for the rest of their lives is the way to go.......(both have advantages and disadvantages, if I got the big candy at 25 years old here in Canada, you can bet I would never have roamed the world)

Once again, think about it; 56 at the time, I have zero reason to lie about what they told me on a HR telephone interview, once again 50K plus MINOR increases during that time..........So once again, what HR said and what the reality is here in 2017 are two different things, and I learned something from this forum.

If retiring at 60, that means 4 years left, not worth it. My situation at the time brought me significantly more money, to the tune of 160K over that time period. If retiring at 65, I calculated that I would need to be an 8 year 320 FO just to break even on that payscale......or 64 years old. One thing I did not know is how fast upgrades were happening, and that is the wild card that you cannot predict unless you are actually employed in the office at flight ops.

So once again, young boys and girls from a 58 year old, big red has morphed into a VERY desirable job if you look at everything long term, and the long game is really where you want to be. If you are approaching your best before date, obviously, not so simple.

I'm getting the feeling that basic math skills are weak to absent on this forum????
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#19 Post by confusedalot » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:54 pm

snowcone wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:06 pm
56 years old and you are acting like that on an Internet forum.

I feel sorry for you.
Hey I'll take the pity, snowhite snowcone, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Wanna fight, I'm game. Yep, it's an internet forum, and sometimes, some jerks just pass the goalposts.

From a pitiful 58 year old. who probably did more than you as well :lol: I have a problem, see, not into the canadiana politically correct ratshit, which is more toxic than texas bullshit.

Any questions?
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#20 Post by tailgunner » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:18 pm

Confusedalot,
After reading your posts I am at a complete loss as to why you were not snapped up by AC. I guess I will just keep my eyes and ears open for you in the AMEX lounge, talking up your 19000 hours and the fact that you are doing the same flying I was 4 years ago for 50 percent of the wage.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#21 Post by confusedalot » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:56 pm

I'm retired you poor fool. And 19000 in time is no big feat for a 58 year old, it's only normal time. It's actually even less than normal since I had training and admin duties, and stuck behind a desk for 5 years. So no bragging here. Should be more like 24K as a normal line driver.

Since you are an elitist white anglo saxon protestant, here's even more for ya to bash.......you like bashing others to put yourself at a higher plane, right? Get this, I was turned down by the AC gods 3, yep, 3, times........ Once at 26 and 4000 hours, once at 40 and 14000 hours, and once through a skyregional
flowthrough thingie at 56.

That should make your day. I am a total &*?%up cuz I don't work for Air Canadaz. By extension, anybody who does not work for air canadaz are inferior, right? Are you at orgasm level yet?

As i said before, sure am adept at fooling others, except air canadaz of course, since I was gainfully employed despite numerous bankruptcies and mass layoffs, all the while passing countless interviews just to get back on my feet again and survive, with direct entry jobs to boot. Man those companies are fools :lol: Luckiest man in the world since I have zero incidents to my name. :lol:

So have at it, white anglo saxon protestant, more british than that horrible bloodline based british class system that everybody despises. You are superior by birth and are therefore entitled to pass judgement on persons you have zero clue about. Sad that we inferiors need to even interact with bluebloods in this business.

I wrote a simple off the cuff comment about a pedestrian issue of beancounting through the best knowledge from the horses mouth of what I was told, and what do you do? You use a forum to crush a person to the maximum, a sure sign of your true nature. Because I had some fantastic opportunity ahead of me at 56? What?

And, I don't have an amex card, too poor to have one. So don't worry about any high falutin lounges, can't afford them.

From a humble hard worker who gets abused by the superior beings of this canadian business. :lol: As for you, I'll be on the lookout for an arrogant 4 striper who walks on water and who's #$%? don't stink. Some things never change, it's always been like that.

Can you leave me alone now??
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#22 Post by short bus » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:49 pm

Dude, serenity now...
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#23 Post by confusedalot » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:48 pm

I know, you are right. Few get under my skin but this guy.....expert at pushing just about every single button with uncanny ease.....and likes it.

Life is life, just roll with it is what I really want to do at the end of the day.

Too late now, should have stayed expat flying the world.....
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#24 Post by aV1aTOr » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:58 pm

confusedalot wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:25 pm
aV1aTOr wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:31 pm
As far as your numbers, Airline Pilot Central might not be the best source. My year 4 income at AC was 6 figures as a mainline FO. That's T4 taxable income, not perdiums, pension etc. Rouge guys will do better than that.
I was told that flat pay of about 50K for 4 years at AC was the norm, and this from AC HR during a feeder airline interview..........

Please tell us how you doubled that rate in your 4th year. Is AC HR lying?
Seriously dude, I feel next to zero need to justify any income numbers to you. If HR told you that you'd be making 50k for 4 years, then yes you were misinformed. And you employed absolutely no critical thinking on your own part. 50k in year one, yes. But as has been explained here, the pay at AC is far more complicated than hourly wage quoted by some website or recruiting staff member, and it goes up quickly. If you want to disbelieve that fact to make yourself feel better, go ahead.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#25 Post by confusedalot » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:34 pm

Hey, I am like anybody else, I like money as in, the more I get the more I like it. So, what's your problem? I innocently stated that big red told me 50K flat, plus a few incremental bits over the first 4 years. Call me stupid, but incremental does not translate to 72K (or whatever it is) 3 years later Tell me why I would lie about that. And yes, you poor fool, I am more aware of the ''complexities'' of formula pay.

One other thing, since I am a naive sort, I did not think about scanning every single avcanada thread before talking to them, I am, once again, the naive sort that takes people at their word, you know like the oldtimers who sign contracts on a handshake and trust?

I don't need to make myself feel better, unlike yourself.

Sheesh, this internet business sure is nasty.................
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