First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

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SuperchargedRS
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#26 Post by SuperchargedRS » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:03 am

For one there is no pilot shortage, we have more than enough pilots with the experience required, the SHORTAGE is in PAY, no one with that level of experience wants to work for crap, and unlike in Canada, they won't.

The regionals dont actually pay that much, all you can count on for pay is what's protected in your union CBA, the bonuses that the management use to get the pay to those artificial numbers can and will come and go at the whims on management.

Real world, for being responsible for the lives of 100 people and a $15,000,000.00USD jet, the pay should be a CLEAN (as in per the CBA) $100k USD STARTING, as in year 1 FO, until they start putting numbers out there like that they will have staffing issues.

As far as Canadians coming here to work, good luck with that lol
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#27 Post by Sharklasers » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:11 am

SuperchargedRS wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:03 am
For one there is no pilot shortage, we have more than enough pilots with the experience required, the SHORTAGE is in PAY, no one with that level of experience wants to work for crap, and unlike in Canada, they won't.

The regionals dont actually pay that much, all you can count on for pay is what's protected in your union CBA, the bonuses that the management use to get the pay to those artificial numbers can and will come and go at the whims on management.

Real world, for being responsible for the lives of 100 people and a $15,000,000.00USD jet, the pay should be a CLEAN (as in per the CBA) $100k USD STARTING, as in year 1 FO, until they start putting numbers out there like that they will have staffing issues.

As far as Canadians coming here to work, good luck with that lol
Finally something I can agree on with Supercharged, I fly with people all the time taking about how we will soon be able to go south and steal American mainline jobs. It won't and shouldn't happen and here's why.

The Americans require a degree if you don't come from their regional flow period, full stop. You can count on both hands the amount of mainline OTS hires in the States hired without degree in the last 15 years since 9/11. You can be the captain of the A380 and without that slip of paper your going to Envoy, it's been tried.

There is not now nor will ever be a shortage of American pilots trying to get to a mainline carrier, they will gradually lower the requirements in terms of total time and education as needed but they will never not fill a groundschool. The airline shortage will effect their regionals and I know I won't quit my mainline A320 job to go sling gear in an RJ in and out of LGA all day.

I get mad when I see people yammering on about how the Americans are dying to have us and we will all walk into mainline gigs because for the most part these are the same dinks that shit bricks at the prospect of the russkies coming in here as TFWs to do all our sun'n'fun flying. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, pick a side @$$holes.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#28 Post by confusedalot » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:23 pm

Bit of a historical thing......

In the ancient times where I come from, I know that there was a commuter carrier in the US that was willing to hire canadian pilots wth the restraint of getting some sort of restricted work permit only to that airline. Sorry, I cannot remember the name of the place, but they were operating F27 and Twin Otter, in the northeasern US, circa 1980-1982. The place of course has been bought out by someone and no longer exists in it's former state.

Way before my time, I had heard of ex rcaf pilots being hired at United. Somewhere around the 60's.

So....it has happened, but....they are not that hard up south of the border yet.

Meybe it will happen in the future, maybe not; don't hold your breath though.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#29 Post by atphat » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:16 am

Don’t hold your breath is right. The Americans will never need us to fly at their mainline carriers. Never. If you are a Canadian pilot with relevant time and looking to make bank it’s off to Asia for you. Maybe even the sandbox but to a lesser degree.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#30 Post by altiplano » Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:13 am

I agree that anyone counting that the US will just throw the doors open is dreaming. There may be some hiring at some point, there has been in the past, but it will be metered and targeted and minimal.

That's why we need to focus on wages here.

We can no longer accept substandard pay increases or concessionary bargaining in Canada while our peers to the south make record contract gains and take home double what we do for the same job.

Heck, not just to the south, most of the airlines in the world have significantly better contracts and higher pay than even our best airlines.

Enough is enough.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#31 Post by 1000islander » Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:33 am

"but they were operating F27 and Twin Otter, in the northeasern US, circa 1980-1982."

Would that have been Pilgrim Airlines??? They used to fly in to YOW,based in Groton, Conn
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#32 Post by garfield » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:41 am

Sharklasers wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:11 am
SuperchargedRS wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:03 am
For one there is no pilot shortage, we have more than enough pilots with the experience required, the SHORTAGE is in PAY, no one with that level of experience wants to work for crap, and unlike in Canada, they won't.

The regionals dont actually pay that much, all you can count on for pay is what's protected in your union CBA, the bonuses that the management use to get the pay to those artificial numbers can and will come and go at the whims on management.

Real world, for being responsible for the lives of 100 people and a $15,000,000.00USD jet, the pay should be a CLEAN (as in per the CBA) $100k USD STARTING, as in year 1 FO, until they start putting numbers out there like that they will have staffing issues.

As far as Canadians coming here to work, good luck with that lol
Finally something I can agree on with Supercharged, I fly with people all the time taking about how we will soon be able to go south and steal American mainline jobs. It won't and shouldn't happen and here's why.

The Americans require a degree if you don't come from their regional flow period, full stop. You can count on both hands the amount of mainline OTS hires in the States hired without degree in the last 15 years since 9/11. You can be the captain of the A380 and without that slip of paper your going to Envoy, it's been tried.

There is not now nor will ever be a shortage of American pilots trying to get to a mainline carrier, they will gradually lower the requirements in terms of total time and education as needed but they will never not fill a groundschool. The airline shortage will effect their regionals and I know I won't quit my mainline A320 job to go sling gear in an RJ in and out of LGA all day.

I get mad when I see people yammering on about how the Americans are dying to have us and we will all walk into mainline gigs because for the most part these are the same dinks that shit bricks at the prospect of the russkies coming in here as TFWs to do all our sun'n'fun flying. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, pick a side @$$holes.
So if a canadian regional pilot with a degree do a FAA conversion what are the stakes of getting hired at a mainline U.S. carrier?
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#33 Post by SuperchargedRS » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:27 pm

Unless he already has a right to work in the US, like a dual citizen or something, I'd say about.......zero.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#34 Post by confusedalot » Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:24 pm

1000islander wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:33 am
"but they were operating F27 and Twin Otter, in the northeasern US, circa 1980-1982."

Would that have been Pilgrim Airlines??? They used to fly in to YOW,based in Groton, Conn
Yes, that's the one, thanks for refreshing my memory.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#35 Post by rudder » Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:37 am

altiplano wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:13 am
I agree that anyone counting that the US will just throw the doors open is dreaming. There may be some hiring at some point, there has been in the past, but it will be metered and targeted and minimal.

That's why we need to focus on wages here.

We can no longer accept substandard pay increases or concessionary bargaining in Canada while our peers to the south make record contract gains and take home double what we do for the same job.

Heck, not just to the south, most of the airlines in the world have significantly better contracts and higher pay than even our best airlines.

Enough is enough.
Agreed. Yet two of the largest pilot groups in Canada are in decade long collective agreements with locked in pay rates/COLA.

I believe the start to jacking up the house is getting everybody in the house. Good progress is being made with the unionization at WJ/W) Encore, but ultimately we need all airline pilots under a union banner (preferably the same one). The pilot groups going in to bargaining have a chance to set benchmark pay rates.

Next, for the locked in pilots the number one bargaining issue must be wages. So any time the employer comes with an ask, the answer should be we want to talk about adjusting pay rates. If the employer says that issue is not negotiable, then the answer should be that then there is nothing to talk about. The AA pilots got the employer to come to them with an early offer of increased pay rates. No reason that cannot be duplicated here.

NB CA pay in the US is approaching US$300k. WB CA pay is approaching US$400k. Company pension contribution levels 16-16.5%. Without exchange rate adjustments there is nearly a 20% cost advantage in pilot costs Canada vs US. Including exchange rates it may be as high as 50%. There is lots of room for CDN employers to make adjustments and still be at a significant pilot cost advantage.

Our American counterparts have figured out how to leverage the pilot supply shortage. We need to do the same.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#36 Post by mbav8r » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:35 am

Rudder, would you agree the catalyst and continuation of the increased pay south of the border is because of the 1500 hour rule.
In Canada with no such rule Jazz has been able to put fresh grads in the right seat and now other regionals are implementing that to fill their needs, until such a time where this is not allowed we will continue to lag behind our neighbors.
For what it’s worth, there are companies putting very low time pilots in the left seat of King Air 200s and alike and caravan operators offering up 100g, so while lagging we are seeing the effects of the shortage at the 703/704 level, should work it’s way up to regionals soon.
To your point about the 10 year contract, agreed that there will be no give without a take, I believe that if Jazz can no longer fill their ground schools, they will be looking at the pay. Problem, until our competitors raise theirs, we risk losing work to them if we become too expensive again.
Question, is GGN able to fill their classes?
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#37 Post by rudder » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:44 am

1500 hour rule or no rule - every regional carrier in Canada is competing for these same 500 hour pilots. So you can offer $36k with a video interview at AC or you can offer more than $36k with or without the interview. Ultimately, market forces will prevail. The first company to cancel flights for lack of crew will be the first to improve their offer to the prospective new-hires.

With current mobility and promotion opportunities, the regionals should be hiring pilots that are close to upgrade ready. Instead, many are hiring pilots that meet the bare regulatory minimum to occupy a seat in a part 705 aircraft. For these carriers, the current offer is generally not attracting the most qualified candidates.

Status quo cannot prevail. What will be interesting is to see what change looks like. Pilots can sit back and see what management comes up with, or they can act collectively and proactively for a model that benefits both their respective air carrier network and the profession.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#38 Post by Dockjock » Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:09 am

No current Canadian airline pilot will go to the US, but if the option was there may future ones would. And that would open Canadian carriers to competition on labour, which would drive up wages. If you had 1500 hrs and could work at Jazz, Sky, Envoy, or Endeavor, where do you go? If your future max earnings are USD$400 vs CAD$280...it's not at all about what you make in year one or two.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#39 Post by TG » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:22 am

SuperchargedRS wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:03 am
Real world, for being responsible for the lives of 100 people and a $15,000,000.00USD jet, the pay should be a CLEAN (as in per the CBA) $100k USD STARTING, as in year 1 FO, until they start putting numbers out there like that they will have staffing issues.
Except it's Captains who are ultimately responsable and on top of that they may have to "baby sit" super green F/O's if this trend continue.


Good luck with those figures.
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#40 Post by Rupert.Pupkin » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:39 am

and that first year FO probably has way better reserve conditions compared to AC's reserve rules. Their rules are almost as bad as medivac schedules flying in northern Ontario...
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Re: First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

#41 Post by SuperchargedRS » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:41 am

TG wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:22 am
SuperchargedRS wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:03 am
Real world, for being responsible for the lives of 100 people and a $15,000,000.00USD jet, the pay should be a CLEAN (as in per the CBA) $100k USD STARTING, as in year 1 FO, until they start putting numbers out there like that they will have staffing issues.
Except it's Captains who are ultimately responsable and on top of that they may have to "baby sit" super green F/O's if this trend continue.


Good luck with those figures.

Super green pilots shouldn't be FOs.

It's a cockpit not a classroom or daycare, cut your teeth working your way up from the small stuff, learn to PIC, I don't think anyone without a full ATP should be on the flight deck of a transport category aircraft.

Again, it's simple marketing, if pilots and the media ran with it, it wouldn't be hard to get some ATP min rules passed like the US.
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