Airline Gender Pay Gap: BBC Report

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NewCommercialPilot
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Airline Gender Pay Gap: BBC Report

Post by NewCommercialPilot »

It is likely the same at airlines the world over, but here is the stat that the BBC is reporting:

"Women's hourly pay rates are 52% lower than men's at Easyjet."

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42580194

This is a stain on all men in the airline industry. I hang my head in shame that we have all participated in this travesty of justice. We need to do better!!
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Re: Airline Gender Pay Gap: BBC Report

Post by DanWEC »

At first blush, this statistic seems very surprising, but, statistics are only as good as the cross section.

Easyjet has been around for 20 something years, I’m willing to bet that, as in other airlines, far more women have been hired in recent years than before, so as a set, many are much more junior. Pay has also dropped. I bet the same applies to Air Canada.
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Last edited by DanWEC on Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Airline Gender Pay Gap: BBC Report

Post by JBI »

Uneducated articles like this actually weaken the valid concerns that there are not more women in senior management roles. Of course Flight Attendants make less money than pilots, just like nurses make less money than doctors and paralegals make less money than lawyers. The latter all require more training and credentials than the former.

It is interesting to note that while women make up 50% or more of new law school students and have done so for the last 10 - 15 years, they still account for a much lower percentage of law firm partners. Women also make up roughly 50% of new medical school classes. We do need more women to become pilots.

However, when you look at senior management across corporation and also the recent listening of the 100 highest paid CEOs in Canada, http://www.macleans.ca/economy/money-ec ... -for-2018/ - only 2 or 3 of the highest paid CEOs in Canada are women (as an aside, Air Canada's CEO was number #48 on the list and WestJet's was #70). There is a huge under representation of women in these roles.

That IS an issue, but this article misses that point completely and instead will, rightly, be mocked for their inaccuracy.
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Re: Airline Gender Pay Gap: BBC Report

Post by NewCommercialPilot »

Correlation does not imply causation, and equality of opportunity does not imply equality of outcome. The feminist dogmatic narrative, firmly entrenched in the neo-Marxist, post-Modern illiberal leftwing that has taken control of western universities, is victorious. Trump touched a nerve in the USA and exploited this to his advantage. Fake news does exist, and google has replaced the water cooler/coffee shop/neighbourhood bar/aft galley in the promulgation of utter clap-trap.

What is portrayed by the mainstream media as a gender pay gap, is the result of choices by women, not systematic oppression by corporations, or men. All women are welcome to the jobs cutting down forests, digging holes in the ground hundreds of meters below the surface, erecting power lines in northern Manitoba, or spending hours and hours on the loading docks hoping for a shot at that 180 on floats.

To be blunt, if women cost less to employ, soul-less bean counters at capitalistic organizations the world over would chase the bottom line, and hire, you guessed it, whamen.

As Oprah said last night at the GG's, speak your truth. Don't succumb uncritically to the latest trendy meme. If it stinks, call it a cow patty.

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Last edited by NewCommercialPilot on Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Airline Gender Pay Gap: BBC Report

Post by justwork »

If I ran an airline I would only hire women. Women office, women ramp workers, women flight attendant, women pilots.... Think of the competitive advantage!!!

So, that was a joke. What I am proud of in the airline business (at least Canadian) pilot pay is set by position and seniority - sex has nothing to do with it. Second year FO or Captain gets what they get regardless of gender.
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Re: Airline Gender Pay Gap: BBC Report

Post by JBI »

NewCommercialPilot wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:35 am The feminist dogmatic narrative, firmly entrenched in the neo-Marxist, post-Modern illiberal leftwing that has taken contorl of western universities, is victorious.

...
What is portrayed by the mainstream media as a gender pay gap, is the result of choices by women, not systematic oppression by corporations, or men. All women are welcome to the jobs cutting down forest, digging holes in the ground hundreds of meters below the surface, erecting power lines in northern Manitoba, or spending hours and hours on the loading docks hoping for a shot at that 180 on floats.
Yes and No. You're setting up a straw-man (straw-woman? :lol: ) argument that there is a commonly held 'mainstream' opinion that all women should get paid the same as men whether they do the same job or not. While I'm sure you'll find some left wing wing nuts who do believe that - they, like other right wing wing nuts, tend to be outliers (and psychologically a bit "off"). I think that you'll find very few people who hold that opinion - even women at universities (considering they are paying tuition in order to improve their job prospects). I've attended 3 different universities so far and have met some pretty hard core feminists and none of them would suggest that nurses or legal assistants (primarily female roles) should get the same pay as doctors or lawyers (previously used to be primarily male roles, though that is changing). That's the failure of these types of articles.

But, to make the statement that the 'system' has nothing to do with the fact that traditional female roles tend to pay less and that there is still a dearth of women in senior management roles is quite naive.

Is it oppression? I wouldn't go that far, but, for example, in the legal profession, many law firms have been set up like a pyramid scheme. The associates bill thousands of hours to make the partners the most money and those who can bill crazy amounts of hours make partner. I have met many law firm partners who are not actually very good lawyers, they just bill a crap load of hours (I believe Schooner69A may have even met one :lol: ). So, while female associates are just as 'capable' of deciding to bill thousands of hours each year for the decade of their life between their mid 20s to early 30s to make partner, it doesn't take a degree in biology to determine that women are already at a disadvantage (while some law firms are expanding parental leave policies, most still require an associate to put in the same amount of 'working' years prior to making partner). But, the real issue is WHO makes the requirements to making partner and WHY are those requirements necessary? I've met many excellent female lawyers who left law firms because they wanted to have children and it was going to have a real negative impact on their career progression.

So, to get back to the discussion. Yes, this article is flawed. Yes, in our western society women (and other under represented classes of persons) still have the ability to make choices on their jobs and career advancement. But, to look at this situation and suggest that society has nothing to do with gender roles and the under representation of women in certain jobs misses the point completely.
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Re: Airline Gender Pay Gap: BBC Report

Post by NewCommercialPilot »

JBI, do you have a background in the STEM fields? I don't want to button hole you, but I'm trying to get a feel for where your biases (we all have them) may be.

And to correct you, I never mentioned anything about gender roles, only gender based pay gap illusions.
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Re: Airline Gender Pay Gap: BBC Report

Post by altiplano »

Surprisingly, I agree with NCP...

Postmodernism and what are today being called liberals have gone way way way too far. Political correctness, feminism.

Even Noam Chomsky is calling postmodernism an abject failure.

Unfortunately, most of the current generation of nationalist, social conservatives are also way off map from anything I can find palatable.

edit:
JBI, I'm not sure they're outliers anymore? Feels like they're at the wheel of their respective parties/institutions...
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Re: Airline Gender Pay Gap: BBC Report

Post by NewCommercialPilot »

Altiplano, it had to happen sooner or later.
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Re: Airline Gender Pay Gap: BBC Report

Post by NewCommercialPilot »

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-41805053

Apparently, at least in the UK, it will take 100 years to eliminate the gender based pay gap. If we refer to exhibit A, the EasyJet 52% pay disparity cited above, EasyJet has 100 years to either:

(a) pay their FA's the same as pilots,
(b) incentivize women into becoming pilots, perhaps by letting them know about the glorious career that awaits them, or
(c) let private companies keep doing what they do best, which is hire the best candidate for the job and drop all the affirimative action BS, unless it can be shown that the there is actual discrimination in hiring and we can continue to give nth-wave feminists something to moan about in 100 years.

A disparity in outcomes does not equal a disparity in opportunies. Correlation is not the same as causation. Repeat as necessary until you get it.

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Re: Airline Gender Pay Gap: BBC Report

Post by altiplano »

NewCommercialPilot wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:27 am Altiplano, it had to happen sooner or later.
LOL...
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Re: Airline Gender Pay Gap: BBC Report

Post by JBI »

NCP - check PMs

Altiplano - what? agreeing with NCP?! yikes, maybe this latest winter storm actually did cause hell to freeze over :lol:

Fair points - things are getting more polarized, especially here in the US. I'd argue part of that is simply as a result of one 'side' assuming a presumptive argument from the other side. I don't suggest that I'm not biased. However, there's a big difference in going full fledged affirmative action and only hiring women (and not better qualified men) than suggesting that there are not significant barriers to entry for many professions that as a result of societal norms do make it harder for women to enter or succeed in certain roles. Should they be changed? Maybe, maybe not. Men and women are biologically different.

The two points I'm arguing are that 1- this particular BBC article makes a glaring error with regard to the gender wage gap. Most real measurements of that metric are for performing the same or extremely similar roles, not within whole organizations (and make no mistake, there still is a wage gap for less pay for similar roles) and; 2 - when you look at whole organizations, you do need to question why men make up the bulk of employees at the senior or executive level and the reasons for that? Is some of it self selection? You bet - but that's not even close to the whole picture.
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Re: Airline Gender Pay Gap: BBC Report

Post by Inverted2 »

This is just more SJW propaganda crap. I have never seen a pay scale separate for men and women ever. Our pilots and flight attendants get paid the same regardless of gender for their role in the company. If they are saying everyone should get the same pay regardless of occupation move to Cuba please.
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Re: Airline Gender Pay Gap: BBC Report

Post by SuperchargedRS »

BS

At least not in the 1st world

Show me in a North American CBA where it allows for lower pay based on sex... spoiler alert it doesnt

Also hiring wise, no one CARES!
If you have the experience, can fly/do the job and have the right attitude you're hired


When I was building hours I joined this club, there were a few women there, one always said people had problems with her because she was a woman, she didn't really see (or care to see) that the other women were not having the same issues, what she didn't, and probably still doesn't get, is her issue wasn't with what's between her legs, it was with what is better her ears.
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Re: Airline Gender Pay Gap: BBC Report

Post by confusedalot »

As far as I know, a pilot is paid as a pilot regardless of gender. A flight attendant is paid as a flight attendant regardless of gender.

Now, where exactly is the problem?
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Re: Airline Gender Pay Gap: BBC Report

Post by Eric Janson »

More PC crap to support a toxic Feminist agenda imho.

I'm also fed up with post modernism and cultural marxism - it's destroying our society!

Two points:-

1. This is illegal in all Western countries. So where are the lawsuits?

2. Why aren't all companies hiring 100% women if they are paying them less - a huge cost saving. This isn't happening either.

The only logical explanation is that this is a myth.
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Re: Airline Gender Pay Gap: BBC Report

Post by NewCommercialPilot »

Last night, I waded through a report by the American Association of University Women (AAUW): https://www.aauw.org/research/the-simpl ... r-pay-gap/

They still maintain that despite influences by job choices by women that there are still nefarious forces at work that lead women to make less money than men over a lifetime.
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Re: Airline Gender Pay Gap: BBC Report

Post by Eric Janson »

Straight from the BBC article:-

All three firms say men and women are paid equally when in the same role.


Non story.
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Re: Airline Gender Pay Gap: BBC Report

Post by upnatem »

JBI wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:18 am Should they be changed? Maybe, maybe not. Men and women are biologically different.
Geez, what rock have you been hiding under? With the advent of gender fluidity and intense focus on individual rights and self-definition, that's not right at all. Anyone of us can decide which gender we are and when we'd like to change.

What I don't understand is why more women (old fashioned categorization) don't simply define themselves as men (mea culpa - old fashioned again, but I'm not totally up on what the latest terminology might be) and reap the immediate benefits of the resultant pay increase.
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Re: Airline Gender Pay Gap: BBC Report

Post by NewCommercialPilot »

upnatem wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:25 am
JBI wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:18 am Should they be changed? Maybe, maybe not. Men and women are biologically different.
Geez, what rock have you been hiding under? With the advent of gender fluidity and intense focus on individual rights and self-definition, that's not right at all. Anyone of us can decide which gender we are and when we'd like to change.

What I don't understand is why more women (old fashioned categorization) don't simply define themselves as men (mea culpa - old fashioned again, but I'm not totally up on what the latest terminology might be) and reap the immediate benefits of the resultant pay increase.
Good point. Gender is now a choice, which is change in the sales pitch. Formerly, defenders of gay men and lesbian (women) proclaimed that they shouldn't be punished on the basis of how they were born, that they were "made" that way.
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