CBC: Pilot shortage

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wimyvr
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CBC: Pilot shortage

#1 Post by wimyvr » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:49 am

Who's going to fly the plane? Pilot shortage could get worse for regional carriers.
New federal rules around pilot fatigue could increase problem.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/pilot-s ... -1.4451976
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#2 Post by SuperchargedRS » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:29 am

Sounds more like a working conditions and pay shortage
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#3 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:33 am

Umm, why not start hiring women? That might solve the pilot shortage problem and close the gender based pay gap. I call that a twofer!
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#4 Post by rudder » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:41 am

For some reason, the CDN industry thinks that the laws of supply and demand do not apply.

Nobody is going to self invest $100k in vocational training to work for $20-30k per year.

If there is a choke point at finding flying instructors, then I guess instructor pay should be $60k+.

And the best that ATAC can come up with is that the new SAFETY rules about pilot fatigue are the problem.

The industry in Canada is broken with no plan to recover from the pilot shortage.
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#5 Post by SuperchargedRS » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:03 am

NewCommercialPilot wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:33 am
Umm, why not start hiring women? That might solve the pilot shortage problem and close the gender based pay gap. I call that a twofer!
lol, dont think they are NOT hiring women, just less women become pilots.

Also the gender pay gap is BS
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#6 Post by digits_ » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:29 am

wimyvr wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:49 am
Who's going to fly the plane? Pilot shortage could get worse for regional carriers.
New federal rules around pilot fatigue could increase problem.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/pilot-s ... -1.4451976
Of course it is safer to have inexperienced pilots fly fatigued than have those same pilots fly well rested (if that really, the new rules aren't that great).

Allright, here are the solutions for the "shortage":
- Flight Instructors: pay them like helicopter instructors. If they can do it, so can fixed wing operators. Or even less: 70k CAD/year for 4 work days per week and you'll have lots of applications. Don't think that's that far out of reach.
- Regionals: open more bases, so people can live where they want. Assign a base upon hiring, not during groundschool. Pilots with some experience are a bit older (although not much nowadays) and often have a family/house/... that makes it harder to move.
- If you really think there is a big shortage: invest in training yourself. Like navcanada does I believe? Cadet programs like some European countries do. But don't be surprised those cadets leave the industry if they have to work nightshifts for 30k/year. You have to train people and keep them.
- Medevac operators: have a fixed schedule. Give people the opportunity to sleep
- 703/704: As suggested by other posters, if you want experience grey haired pilots flying your planes, invest in more ground staff to load/unload airplanes, clean planes, plug up planes etc. Make it a bit more "airline" like. While some young pilots might be unwilling to do the "ground"-aspects of flying, older pilots might be physically unable to do said ground things

Or, you know, invest thousands of dollars in lawyers and lobbyists to try and stop any change from happening.
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#7 Post by speedah » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:13 pm

I think the best part is the trashbucket of all of Canadian aviation decided to go on the record and say they cant find pilots... I WONDER WHY?>?>????
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#8 Post by ahramin » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:37 pm

I'm going to get in contact with the author but it would be helpful to have some numbers. The following organizations are named, if anyone has payscales please post here or pm me.

Bearskin
Air Georgian
Encore
Westjet
Air Canada
Super T Aviation (instructor wages)
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#9 Post by infiniteregulus » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:47 pm

NewCommercialPilot wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:33 am
Umm, why not start hiring women? That might solve the pilot shortage problem and close the gender based pay gap. I call that a twofer!
What does this have to do with it??
digits_ wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:29 am
wimyvr wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:49 am
Who's going to fly the plane? Pilot shortage could get worse for regional carriers.
New federal rules around pilot fatigue could increase problem.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/pilot-s ... -1.4451976
Of course it is safer to have inexperienced pilots fly fatigued than have those same pilots fly well rested (if that really, the new rules aren't that great).

Allright, here are the solutions for the "shortage":
- Flight Instructors: pay them like helicopter instructors. If they can do it, so can fixed wing operators. Or even less: 70k CAD/year for 4 work days per week and you'll have lots of applications. Don't think that's that far out of reach.
- Regionals: open more bases, so people can live where they want. Assign a base upon hiring, not during groundschool. Pilots with some experience are a bit older (although not much nowadays) and often have a family/house/... that makes it harder to move.
- If you really think there is a big shortage: invest in training yourself. Like navcanada does I believe? Cadet programs like some European countries do. But don't be surprised those cadets leave the industry if they have to work nightshifts for 30k/year. You have to train people and keep them.
- Medevac operators: have a fixed schedule. Give people the opportunity to sleep
- 703/704: As suggested by other posters, if you want experience grey haired pilots flying your planes, invest in more ground staff to load/unload airplanes, clean planes, plug up planes etc. Make it a bit more "airline" like. While some young pilots might be unwilling to do the "ground"-aspects of flying, older pilots might be physically unable to do said ground things

Or, you know, invest thousands of dollars in lawyers and lobbyists to try and stop any change from happening.
All great points! Heck I'd go back to instructing eventually in my later years if that were the case hahaha
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#10 Post by BE20 Driver » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:55 pm

I think a few dozen of us on here should email the CBC author and tell him why there is a perceived shortage of people willing to work for operators like Bearskin.
I'd bet Bearskin pay is the same as it was in 1980 dollar for dollar.
They've heard from the operators, it's time they heard from a bunch of pilots.

Kyle Bakx
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Is a Calgary-based journalist with CBC's network business unit. You can contact him on Twitter at @kylebakx
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#11 Post by confusedalot » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:26 pm

I am not fond of the cadet style programs utilized in Asia and Europe, however, maybe time has come for Canadian carriers to consider this option?

In ancient times, big red did indeed hire at 250 hours and ran them through their training system.

Just say'n. It's been done before. Still being done elsewhere actually.

Disclaimer; I was not a cadet and did it the hard way.
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#12 Post by digits_ » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:31 pm

confusedalot wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:26 pm
I am not fond of the cadet style programs utilized in Asia and Europe, however, maybe time has come for Canadian carriers to consider this option?

In ancient times, big red did indeed hire at 250 hours and ran them through their training system.

Just say'n. It's been done before. Still being done elsewhere actually.

Disclaimer; I was not a cadet and did it the hard way.
It's not just about the airlines. But if small(er) operators want 500 hour pilots, but you can only find 250 hour pilots, it's unfair to call it a pilot shortage. No, it's a shortage of pilots that won't need as much training. Hire the 250 hour pilot, spend more money/effort on training, and there you go, another pilot that can work for you for more than 6 months.
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#13 Post by confusedalot » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:14 pm

That is my point exactly, maybe the time has come to invest in ''training'' even at the 702/703/704 level. Easy to say I know, and many operators may have to close their doors, but remember that this shortage, or whatever some may want to call it, is not a phenomenon that has not been experienced in other countries/jurisdictions. It just caught up to canada.
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#14 Post by FAD3C » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:07 am

BE20 Driver wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:55 pm
I think a few dozen of us on here should email the CBC author and tell him why there is a perceived shortage of people willing to work for operators like Bearskin.
I'd bet Bearskin pay is the same as it was in 1980 dollar for dollar.
They've heard from the operators, it's time they heard from a bunch of pilots.

Kyle Bakx
Reporter

Is a Calgary-based journalist with CBC's network business unit. You can contact him on Twitter at @kylebakx
I think it got to him, somehow, something. :)
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/pilot-s ... -1.4471354
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#15 Post by infiniteregulus » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:57 am

Wow that's kinda cool :)
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#16 Post by mijbil » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:00 pm

It's a rare story that CBC gets right but this is one of them. I've already told my kid, don't join the Air Force and don't be a pilot. That being said, given the impending Canadian shortage (maybe), it might be a great time to give it a go. Pay however would have to go up a fair bit. Or you could go the mil route but the cost is far far higher. You pay with your soul.

I can't see things reverting to the more relaxed era prior to 911 which is too bad, but you never know. The locked door thing bugs me since that was my first exposure to airplanes. A solution might be to let the kid up to the flight deck and lock the door after them. After the visit to the cockpit, chime the FA and out they come just like we do on a piss break.

Now if only we could invent the auto ironing shirt.
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#17 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:05 pm

I met an F-16 pilot from the USAF last year and he told me they are having problems recruiting pilots. Unbelievable. I'd having given my left nut to be an Air Force pilot. Apparently the job isn't attractive like it once was. I'm not sure what can change that. I love my job now, but it was a challenge getting here. The current crop of new hires has it easy. And good for them. The situation will change again.
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#18 Post by Air.Field » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:50 pm

NewCommercialPilot wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:05 pm
I met an F-16 pilot from the USAF last year and he told me they are having problems recruiting pilots. Unbelievable. I'd having given my left nut to be an Air Force pilot. Apparently the job isn't attractive like it once was. I'm not sure what can change that. I love my job now, but it was a challenge getting here. The current crop of new hires has it easy. And good for them. The situation will change again.
The future for an air force pilot is a drone pilot. Not as exciting.
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#19 Post by Gino Under » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:30 am

There’s no doubt we are seeing an increasing number of pilot shortages worldwide. Pick your licence level, job level or age level. Flight school, corporate Flight department, airline (any level), or military.
But the shortage is now and the need immediate. The numbers of pilots available today won’t allow for any relief anytime soon.
So what about the future?
The future is for drone pilots and remotely controlled airliner pilots. This reality is very likely within the next 15-20 years. So, for those who want to become a pilot today, considering the time it takes to become marketable as a pilot, not to mention the out of pocket money it takes for self-sponsored Licencing, good luck.
Approximately 3-5 years to get qualified looking at 12-15 years sitting at a window seat in the pointy end is about all you’ll have for an exciting career.
After that, you’ll be sitting in a dimly lit room with a monitor, joystick, keyboard and a bowl of chips.
Hell! Why wait 3-5 years when I can do that now for ‘peanuts’.

Who wants to be a pilot? :lol:

Gino
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#20 Post by bobcaygeon » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:19 am

confusedalot wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:14 pm
That is my point exactly, maybe the time has come to invest in ''training'' even at the 702/703/704 level. Easy to say I know, and many operators may have to close their doors, but remember that this shortage, or whatever some may want to call it, is not a phenomenon that has not been experienced in other countries/jurisdictions. It just caught up to canada.
Why 702/703/704?? Your dreaming if these types of operations are making huge amounts of money. Why not 705 operators like AC or WJ re-invest in the ground roots and stop stealing pilots.

AC just pumped out a $950 million profit in the 3rd quarter alone!! WJ boasts that they've been profitable for 49 quarters but now has ALPA everywhere on site. Both carriers love to do nothing but cherry pick pilots.

As stated already AC has done it before with far less automated equipment like the DC9/727.

It's pretty sad when smaller organizations invest more time than AC or WJ do at the grass roots level. Jazz does a good job involving themselves at the college/university level and have for a decade. WJ just finally did something in 2017 with the local university (they drove across town :roll: )

IMHO
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#21 Post by florch » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:39 am

bobcaygeon wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:19 am


Why 702/703/704?? Your dreaming if these types of operations are making huge amounts of money. Why not 705 operators like AC or WJ re-invest in the ground roots and stop stealing pilots.

Nobody is stealing pilots. They aren't property, they are people. If a pilot makes a choice to go another employer, don't blame the pilot or the other employer. Compete for their services!
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#22 Post by fish4life » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:00 am

Exactly if the 702/3/4 jobs offered good pay and lifestyle they wouldn’t have to worry about the big 705 companies because guys would stay and not jump ship ASAP
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#23 Post by bobcaygeon » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:54 am

fish4life wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:00 am
Exactly if the 702/3/4 jobs offered good pay and lifestyle they wouldn’t have to worry about the big 705 companies because guys would stay and not jump ship ASAP
Really??? Good luck with matching AC/WJ pay and schedule. Like it or not, that's what most have their eye on that prize. You can make 6 figures on a 705 aircraft and be home every night in this country and still lose those people as DEC to Encore and the have to commute to YYC and YYZ.

"Stealing" might not be the right word but the concept is the same. Large carriers should be investing the resources vs harvesting the crop that others have put the time, money, and energy into developing. AC should be using a cadet type program to supplement their staff. It's done world wide. British Airways, Lufthansa and KLM type carriers aren't exactly "fly by night operators"
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#24 Post by digits_ » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:03 am

bobcaygeon wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:19 am
confusedalot wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:14 pm
That is my point exactly, maybe the time has come to invest in ''training'' even at the 702/703/704 level. Easy to say I know, and many operators may have to close their doors, but remember that this shortage, or whatever some may want to call it, is not a phenomenon that has not been experienced in other countries/jurisdictions. It just caught up to canada.
Why 702/703/704?? Your dreaming if these types of operations are making huge amounts of money.
If they don't want to, that's fine, but don't cry about a pilot shortage. The pilots are there. Lots of 250 hour pilots without jobs. The training could actually save them money, if the alternative is grounding planes/cancelling flights or hiring pilots that go to the regionals after 6 months.
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

#25 Post by gtanorth » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:28 am

digits_ wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:03 am
bobcaygeon wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:19 am
confusedalot wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:14 pm
That is my point exactly, maybe the time has come to invest in ''training'' even at the 702/703/704 level. Easy to say I know, and many operators may have to close their doors, but remember that this shortage, or whatever some may want to call it, is not a phenomenon that has not been experienced in other countries/jurisdictions. It just caught up to canada.
Why 702/703/704?? Your dreaming if these types of operations are making huge amounts of money.
If they don't want to, that's fine, but don't cry about a pilot shortage. The pilots are there. Lots of 250 hour pilots without jobs. The training could actually save them money, if the alternative is grounding planes/cancelling flights or hiring pilots that go to the regionals after 6 months.
The largest hurdle there is Insurance. That is an often overlooked player. In general they determine the floor for experience.
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