bobcaygeon wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:54 am

fish4life wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:00 am Exactly if the 702/3/4 jobs offered good pay and lifestyle they wouldn’t have to worry about the big 705 companies because guys would stay and not jump ship ASAP

Really??? Good luck with matching AC/WJ pay and schedule. Like it or not, that's what most have their eye on that prize. You can make 6 figures on a 705 aircraft and be home every night in this country and still lose those people as DEC to Encore and the have to commute to YYC and YYZ.

"Stealing" might not be the right word but the concept is the same. Large carriers should be investing the resources vs harvesting the crop that others have put the time, money, and energy into developing. AC should be using a cadet type program to supplement their staff. It's done world wide. British Airways, Lufthansa and KLM type carriers aren't exactly "fly by night operators"

The first group of 12 cadets from Air Georgian move to Air Canada in a couple months, those are the cadets of the now defunct AGL/AC joint program. Air Georgian also just introduced a new cadet program, for better or worse, this is the Air Canada program via the PML. Or perhaps it is more appropriate to say the PML at all express carriers is Air Canada's version of a cadet program. Air Canada does not have a problem hiring pilots, they have a surplus of applicants who are qualified so it would be very tough to convince them to set up a cadet program without it going through their express system.

gtanorth wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:28 am The largest hurdle there is Insurance. That is an often overlooked player. In general they determine the floor for experience.

I disagree. Getting insurance is easy. Getting the cheapest possible insurance is hard.

If you can insure one 250 hour pilot, you can insure all of them. Some of those companies in the article have hired 250 hour pilots, but they prefer 500 or 1000 hour pilots for the experience/lower training costs etc. That proves that they can get insurance for 250 hour pilots.

Hell, airlines get insurance for 250 hour co pilots, then any 703/704 company should be able to get insurance for a dash 8, navajo, metro, ... If they don't, maybe their safety record or training program sucks.

I really don't see the issue here. As long as there is a huge pool of 250 hour pilots available for the jobs, there is no pilot shortage. Train them, and 2-3 years later you'll have captains.

bobcaygeon wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:54 am

fish4life wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:00 am Exactly if the 702/3/4 jobs offered good pay and lifestyle they wouldn’t have to worry about the big 705 companies because guys would stay and not jump ship ASAP

Really??? Good luck with matching AC/WJ pay and schedule. Like it or not, that's what most have their eye on that prize. You can make 6 figures on a 705 aircraft and be home every night in this country and still lose those people as DEC to Encore and the have to commute to YYC and YYZ.

"Stealing" might not be the right word but the concept is the same. Large carriers should be investing the resources vs harvesting the crop that others have put the time, money, and energy into developing. AC should be using a cadet type program to supplement their staff. It's done world wide. British Airways, Lufthansa and KLM type carriers aren't exactly "fly by night operators"

That exact attitude is the problem, work me 15 days a month for 150-175 and you will have experienced pilots stick around and probable even a bunch leave the regionals to fly there.

Actually, it’s a simple matter of premiums.
If AC/WJ and others reach a point in time when they have to lower the experience floor, they’ll pay the higher premium and hiring 250 hour CPL/ME/IR would be no problem. Insurance premiums in Europe, where they hire 250 CPL/ME/IR Pilots is subject to the same insurance concerns. The insurance argument only goes so far and applies only to a certain degree.
The reality is likely to be that these carriers (AC/WJ and others) will eventually hire foreign pilots with the higher level of qualifications and experience they seek, choosing instead to overlook the option of paying increased insurance costs needed to hire Canadians.
Anyone seen that already?

Gino Under

The big guys in Europe put cadets into airliners and do not seem to suffer all that much.

Hey, I don't like it, but it is a road well traveled.

confusedalot wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:44 pm The big guys in Europe put cadets into airliners and do not seem to suffer all that much.

Hey, I don't like it, but it is a road well traveled.

The training those cadets get is a lot different than the training a pilot in a Canadian flight school gets

av8ts wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:12 am

confusedalot wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:44 pm The big guys in Europe put cadets into airliners and do not seem to suffer all that much.

Hey, I don't like it, but it is a road well traveled.

The training those cadets get is a lot different than the training a pilot in a Canadian flight school gets

Well then why don't the two majors start running their own zero-to-hero programs? It's clear they have the profits to do so. WJ's record-setting load factors are going to drop like a rock when they have no more to draw from, same with AC's billion-dollar revenue.

Money, money, money.

The lower time the pilot the more training they will require. Training costs money and the airlines have had it great for 30+years where the people showed up with lots of experience and training already under their belt allowing those companies to cut their training times to a very lean slice of the operating budget. That will not be the case going forward but you try telling a non-pilot MBA who sits in a boardroom with an accountant that you need to double, triple or quadruple your training budget and tell us all about the reaction you are going to get. This will not be met with progressive thinking and forward looking plans, this will be met by airline executives being dragged into the present kicking and screaming like a 4 year old who doesn't want to go to bed yet.

av8ts wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:12 am The training those cadets get is a lot different than the training a pilot in a Canadian flight school gets

No it isn't.

The theory is more substantial

Then they do the classical PPL to multi ifr thing, which is pratically the same as in Canada.

Then one or more sims get added. Multicrew, typerating.


There are a couple MPL programs out there, but most of them are ran pretty similar to Canada. They selection to enter it is way harder though, but once you are in, not much difference. They are all training you to fly planes you know.

RocksAndProps wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:34 am

av8ts wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:12 am

confusedalot wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:44 pm The big guys in Europe put cadets into airliners and do not seem to suffer all that much.

Hey, I don't like it, but it is a road well traveled.

The training those cadets get is a lot different than the training a pilot in a Canadian flight school gets

Well then why don't the two majors start running their own zero-to-hero programs? It's clear they have the profits to do so. WJ's record-setting load factors are going to drop like a rock when they have no more to draw from, same with AC's billion-dollar revenue.

Perhaps they are not quite there today, but tomorrow may be another story, and they just may have to. Otherwise, what are their options?

confusedalot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:45 pm

RocksAndProps wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:34 am

av8ts wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:12 am

The training those cadets get is a lot different than the training a pilot in a Canadian flight school gets

Well then why don't the two majors start running their own zero-to-hero programs? It's clear they have the profits to do so. WJ's record-setting load factors are going to drop like a rock when they have no more to draw from, same with AC's billion-dollar revenue.

Perhaps they are not quite there today, but tomorrow may be another story, and they just may have to. Otherwise, what are their options?

They're going to run out of qualified people pretty soon. I have a feeling that these styles of programs will pop up in the next 3-5 years. AFAIK GGN is running another smaller cadet class soon, but even that won't be enough to fill their seats, let alone AC.

Whenever an industry says there's a shortage of X, what they're really saying is that they don't want to pay high-enough salaries to attract people.

That's what happened in tech in the late 1990s, when entry-level computer programmers were earning $60–90K right out of school. Industry pressured government to hype tech training to prevent a "shortage." Now, entry-level coders work for startups for free to gain experience (and the occasional free pizza), and even the senior ones often earn less than $100K. Industry is happy.

So don't believe the BS. There'd be no shortage of instructors and entry-level airline pilots if they could earn a livable salary doing it.

double post.

Related:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/ottawa- ... -1.4481725

JasonE wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:41 pm Related:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/ottawa- ... -1.4481725

I trained at the Ottawa Flying Club and kept my plane there for five years. It's a great place, but the YOW airport authority and Nav Canada have been going out of their way to price out general aviation (not as bad as YYZ and YUL, but still expensive enough). That's an extra challenge for the club, beyond just an instructor shortage.

JasonE wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:41 pm Related:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/ottawa- ... -1.4481725

"We haven't raised salaries in, I don't even know, years. It's frightening what these guys make," said Swaffer. "This is not a rich kid's hobby. These guys are struggling to make a living." - runs the show

No wonder they cant find instructors, they themselves realize how fucked they treat instructors. Unreal.

Almost every flight school across the country still pays like shit. How many people will be motivated to spend $10K for an instructor rating with this pilots market? In the US ratings are being offered for commitments to instruct for a period of time. Wages and bonus's are on the rise too. Flight schools left and right are going to start closing doors in Canada and the only schools left will be ones with Asian contracts, but even then where do the instructors come from? Even pilot factories like Moncton Flight College are bitching about staffing. https://outline.com/xYHXzB Heres a thought, pony up some dough and make instructing a feasible career, dont brag how you never raise salaries.

Big changes are going to have to happen if this country is to keep up the demand. About fucking time

It's obvious inflation is coming. About time.