China the Aviation Mecca? Think again.

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Eric Janson
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China the Aviation Mecca? Think again.

#1 Post by Eric Janson » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:44 am

Hainan Group in serious trouble.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hna- ... SKBN1F40M5

https://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-e ... -woes.html

Good luck trying to take them to court in China to recover any unpaid salary.

They're not the only ones who have financed growth with massive debt - this is the case throughout China. A lot of smoke and mirrors to hide the reality.

This isn't going to end well imho.
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dumbbell daddy
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Re: China the Aviation Mecca? Think again.

#2 Post by dumbbell daddy » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:55 am

Well thanks to PM fancy socks, recently Canadians haven’t been allowed to work there anyways.
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Re: China the Aviation Mecca? Think again.

#3 Post by willfly4food » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:58 am

This isn't unique to China.

Quick - name one Canadian company that went under and fully paid their employees their final pay? How about all those Sears employees with an underfunded pension - think they'll get their money? Even after going to court, employees would be lucky to get pennies on the dollar here in Canada. We have little-to-no protection here in Canada either.

It might be trouble at Hainan. I've heard Etihad is in trouble too.
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Re: China the Aviation Mecca? Think again.

#4 Post by complexintentions » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:00 am

Yeah, I heard that Canadians were not welcome in China. What's up with that? I haven't had been able to get any actual reason for the barring of Canadian passport holders.

As far as China, it's just a typical risk/reward equation. Who the hell thinks that they're going to get that much money without any risk attached?

And like any gamble, some people have gotten very wealthy, and some have lost, or will. Stay nimble, adapt. There are always more opportunities.

If you want safety and security, stay somewhere safe and secure. Just don't expect a big payout either. As willfly4food notes, Canada is an airline graveyard - hardly the place to be pointing fingers from when it comes to failed, poorly-run companies.

I did a sim eval with HNA when I was considering options. Most amateurish operation I've ever seen - and I've seen a lot. I politely declined. I wish those who may be in tough straits now there all the best.
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Re: China the Aviation Mecca? Think again.

#5 Post by sanjet » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:07 pm

I would tread carefully operating/working in China. This country has a business culture of short term thinking, add that with the over leveraged situation, this is just the beginning.
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Re: China the Aviation Mecca? Think again.

#6 Post by FOD » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:39 pm

sanjet wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:07 pm
I would tread carefully operating/working in China. This country has a business culture of short term thinking, add that with the over leveraged situation, this is just the beginning.
Are you sure you are talking about China, your description sounds more like Canada...
complexintentions wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:00 am
Yeah, I heard that Canadians were not welcome in China. What's up with that? I haven't had been able to get any actual reason for the barring of Canadian passport holders.

As far as China, it's just a typical risk/reward equation. Who the hell thinks that they're going to get that much money without any risk attached?

And like any gamble, some people have gotten very wealthy, and some have lost, or will. Stay nimble, adapt. There are always more opportunities.

If you want safety and security, stay somewhere safe and secure. Just don't expect a big payout either. As willfly4food notes, Canada is an airline graveyard - hardly the place to be pointing fingers from when it comes to failed, poorly-run companies.

I did a sim eval with HNA when I was considering options. Most amateurish operation I've ever seen - and I've seen a lot. I politely declined. I wish those who may be in tough straits now there all the best.
Canadians now welcome to apply, Complexintentions is right on the money. It's what you make of it.
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Re: China the Aviation Mecca? Think again.

#7 Post by rookiepilot » Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:43 am

Interesting.
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Re: China the Aviation Mecca? Think again.

#8 Post by BE20 Driver » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:48 am

Canada certainly isn't Meca either. If anyone has figured out which jurisdiction is, please feel free to post.
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Re: China the Aviation Mecca? Think again.

#9 Post by Eric Janson » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:24 pm

http://www.atimes.com/article/hainan-ai ... d-trading/

Losing close to U$1 Billion of value in 1 day - ouch!

Hainan Group is just one of many in China that have over-expanded with debt. That won't end well imho.

On a related theme - I don't know anyone and haven't met anyone who works in China and makes the kind of salaries advertised.
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Re: China the Aviation Mecca? Think again.

#10 Post by justwork » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:21 am

Eric Janson wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:24 pm
On a related theme - I don't know anyone and haven't met anyone who works in China and makes the kind of salaries advertised.
I do.

Something to remember is that Hainan group is Massive. As far as airlines, I can name a few they are affiliated with: Capital Airlines, Hong Kong Express, GX airlines, Fuzhou airlines, Grand China Air, Hainan airlines, Yangtze River, Tianjin Airlines, Lucky Air, West Air, Urumqi Air, Hong Kong airlines, and I'm sure I'm missing a few. There is also Azul in Brazil, TAP, Comair, Virgin Australia, some airlines in Africa. They also own Swissport. Also they own something like %25 of Hilton. I think it 2017 their revenue was something like 55 Billion USD. They're a global Fortune 500 company.

I'm not a fortune teller, I'm not an economist, I'm not a psychic, and I'm also not worried about my job.
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Re: China the Aviation Mecca? Think again.

#11 Post by telex » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:18 am

justwork wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:21 am
Eric Janson wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:24 pm
On a related theme - I don't know anyone and haven't met anyone who works in China and makes the kind of salaries advertised.
I do.

Something to remember is that Hainan group is Massive. As far as airlines, I can name a few they are affiliated with: Capital Airlines, Hong Kong Express, GX airlines, Fuzhou airlines, Grand China Air, Hainan airlines, Yangtze River, Tianjin Airlines, Lucky Air, West Air, Urumqi Air, Hong Kong airlines, and I'm sure I'm missing a few. There is also Azul in Brazil, TAP, Comair, Virgin Australia, some airlines in Africa. They also own Swissport. Also they own something like %25 of Hilton. I think it 2017 their revenue was something like 55 Billion USD. They're a global Fortune 500 company.

I'm not a fortune teller, I'm not an economist, I'm not a psychic, and I'm also not worried about my job.
Unfortunately HNA profits cannot cover interest payments at the moment. They lost a billion dollars of share value Monday. The fire sale is coming.
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Re: China the Aviation Mecca? Think again.

#12 Post by SuperchargedRS » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:22 am

Thinking a communist third world country with MAJOR human rights issues is Mecca for anything is laughable.

I mean there are plenty of other chit holes where you can make more money, take the Middle East for example, and at least over there's it's honest enough to not pretend to be anything different.
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Re: China the Aviation Mecca? Think again.

#13 Post by Eric Janson » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:25 am

SuperchargedRS wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:22 am
Thinking a communist third world country with MAJOR human rights issues is Mecca for anything is laughable.

I mean there are plenty of other chit holes where you can make more money, take the Middle East for example, and at least over there's it's honest enough to not pretend to be anything different.
Things are going downhill rapidly in the Middle East as well - also no longer a place you want to be imho.
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Re: China the Aviation Mecca? Think again.

#14 Post by GRK2 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:26 am

Eric Janson wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:25 am
SuperchargedRS wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:22 am
Thinking a communist third world country with MAJOR human rights issues is Mecca for anything is laughable.

I mean there are plenty of other chit holes where you can make more money, take the Middle East for example, and at least over there's it's honest enough to not pretend to be anything different.
Things are going downhill rapidly in the Middle East as well - also no longer a place you want to be imho.
Not sure what you mean Eric, EK advertising like crazy fro DEC B777 plus all types for FO, Qatar the same, EY in the naughty seat for a little time out, but rumoured to be short staffed by April when 787 deliveries start again. Maybe you're referring to the steady increase in the COL v the WAWCON? That gets a few in a tizzy, as always...other than that it's pretty much as it's always been...slightly crazy and way beyond my pay grade to even try to understand.
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Re: China the Aviation Mecca? Think again.

#15 Post by FOD » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:50 am

SuperchargedRS wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:22 am
Thinking a communist third world country with MAJOR human rights issues is Mecca for anything is laughable.

I mean there are plenty of other chit holes where you can make more money, take the Middle East for example, and at least over there's it's honest enough to not pretend to be anything different.
An old adage comes to mind. “Those (incredibly indebted) in (vastly overvalued) glass houses shouldn’t throw (probably imported from elsewhere) stones”
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Re: China the Aviation Mecca? Think again.

#16 Post by SuperchargedRS » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:46 am

FOD wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:50 am
SuperchargedRS wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:22 am
Thinking a communist third world country with MAJOR human rights issues is Mecca for anything is laughable.

I mean there are plenty of other chit holes where you can make more money, take the Middle East for example, and at least over there's it's honest enough to not pretend to be anything different.
An old adage comes to mind. “Those (incredibly indebted) in (vastly overvalued) glass houses shouldn’t throw (probably imported from elsewhere) stones”
Uh, no, I think it is very much our duty to through stones at places like china, between their humans rights violations (ever go to a bodies exhibit) to their pollution, to working conditions, etc etc, sorry but that place is a chit hole and if it wasn't for the fact that they have enough industrial infrastructure and damn near slave labor to be able to make widgets cheaper than anyone else, no one would want anything to do with them.

As far as the Mid East, I was talking about about the ISR type work.
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Re: China the Aviation Mecca? Think again.

#17 Post by dumbbell daddy » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:42 pm

SuperchargedRS wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:46 am
FOD wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:50 am
SuperchargedRS wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:22 am
Thinking a communist third world country with MAJOR human rights issues is Mecca for anything is laughable.

I mean there are plenty of other chit holes where you can make more money, take the Middle East for example, and at least over there's it's honest enough to not pretend to be anything different.
An old adage comes to mind. “Those (incredibly indebted) in (vastly overvalued) glass houses shouldn’t throw (probably imported from elsewhere) stones”
Uh, no, I think it is very much our duty to through stones at places like china, between their humans rights violations (ever go to a bodies exhibit) to their pollution, to working conditions, etc etc, sorry but that place is a chit hole and if it wasn't for the fact that they have enough industrial infrastructure and damn near slave labor to be able to make widgets cheaper than anyone else, no one would want anything to do with them.

As far as the Mid East, I was talking about about the ISR type work.
You’re probably someone who never got any major flying expierence outside of a major city. If you’ve ever been to a reserve you’d see first hand how Mother Canada has treated its own people over the years. But whatever it’s cool. We’re awesome. We like to take money away from veterans and give it to terrorists.
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Re: China the Aviation Mecca? Think again.

#18 Post by SuperchargedRS » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:24 pm

I'm in the outskirts and a long ways from a major city, though I do often fly people in need from my area to some of the biggest cities out there.


BTW the natives get way more than they should, by "helping them" they no longer need to fend for them selves and ultimately they are the architects of their own success, or failure.

As far as taking money from vets and giving it to terrorists, well personally I think we shouldn't be taking that money from the tax payers in the first place.
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Re: China the Aviation Mecca? Think again.

#19 Post by Eric Janson » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:03 pm

GRK2 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:26 am
Eric Janson wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:25 am
SuperchargedRS wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:22 am
Thinking a communist third world country with MAJOR human rights issues is Mecca for anything is laughable.

I mean there are plenty of other chit holes where you can make more money, take the Middle East for example, and at least over there's it's honest enough to not pretend to be anything different.
Things are going downhill rapidly in the Middle East as well - also no longer a place you want to be imho.
Not sure what you mean Eric, EK advertising like crazy fro DEC B777 plus all types for FO, Qatar the same, EY in the naughty seat for a little time out, but rumoured to be short staffed by April when 787 deliveries start again. Maybe you're referring to the steady increase in the COL v the WAWCON? That gets a few in a tizzy, as always...other than that it's pretty much as it's always been...slightly crazy and way beyond my pay grade to even try to understand.
I'm talking about the big picture.

A lot of ME countries are running or have run out of money. Massive property crash coming in the UAE (again). The introduction of 5% VAT shows how desperate they are getting. Rumours of 10% VAT and Remittance Tax coming.

Just look at the debt to GDP levels - Dubai sitting at 132%. Doesn't get much coverage for obvious reasons.

Abu Dhabi no longer has the money to bail anyone out including its Airline. Etihad is offering unpaid leave up to 18 months.

Nasty war going on in Yemen that is also not getting much coverage - and the situation in Syria doesn't look to be getting any better.

For a lot of Pilots there are jobs closer to home - plenty of EU Airlines hiring.
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