North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

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altiplano
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North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#1 Post by altiplano » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:49 pm

I thought it would be helpful to see where we stand on 320/737 pay in this country and how we compare to our immediate neighbours.

Top Captain rate, rounded to the dollar
Blended day night if applicable
Not including premiums if applicable
Displayed in CAD on left
1 US Dollar equals 1.24 Canadian Dollar

$216 Air Canada
$210 Westjet

$205 Rouge
$199 Sunwing
$195 Transat

$181 Canadian North
$205 Air North update 5/27/18
$̶1̶6̶0̶ ̶A̶i̶r̶ ̶N̶o̶r̶t̶h̶
$XXX First Air

$131 Swoop
$XXX Enerjet
$144 Flair

US Legacy
$332 Delta - $267 USD
$328 United - $264 USD
$327 American - $263 USD
$312 Alaska - $251 USD
$304 Hawaiian - $245 USD

US LCC/ULCC
$323 Spirit - $259 USD - unconfirmed
$321 Southwest - $258 USD
$312 Virgin - $251 USD
$276 Allegiant - $222 USD
$272 Jet Blue - $219 USD

First Air, Enerjet numbers to go...

For some perspective as to where we were 15 years ago:

$214 Air Canada 2003 320
$271 inflation adjusted to 2018
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Last edited by altiplano on Sun May 27, 2018 6:05 am, edited 14 times in total.

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'97 Tercel
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#2 Post by '97 Tercel » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:15 pm

depressing numbers....

(if you're Canadian)
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#3 Post by Victory » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:19 pm

Swoop pay is in their job posting $131.46 for Step 3 (highest) whatever that means.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#4 Post by ant_321 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:40 pm

Sunwing top is $198.92 for this year.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#5 Post by altiplano » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:05 pm

Sunwing and Swoop rates added.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#6 Post by altiplano » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:10 pm

'97 Tercel wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:15 pm
depressing numbers....

(if you're Canadian)
Absolutely.

I think every Canadian Pilot in one of these positions or considering one of these positions or eventually wanting one of these positions needs to think hard about where we are going wrong.

We all need to take a good look in the mirror and slap ourselves.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#7 Post by DanWEC » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:18 pm

Given the recent bread price fixing scandal by the biggest grocers, that they're scrambling to cover up, I wonder about similar talks between 705 operators in Canada regarding pilot wages. If everyone cooperates, it would seem to be pretty effective.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#8 Post by DropTanks » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:17 am

Transat $195.02
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#9 Post by ZBBYLW » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:12 am

Rouge is about 205 an hour. No overseas, no Nav pay at Rouge.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#10 Post by Eric Janson » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:42 am

Since Top Captain pay is listed perhaps it would also make sense to state how many years it takes to get to this level.

Provides a bit more perspective than just throwing out numbers imho.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#11 Post by confusedalot » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:52 am

The way I see it, two things need to happen;

First, a change of government to a Harper era regime will boost currency markets and eliminate the exchange rate issue, provided that the NAFTA agreement does not fall apart, among other things.

And second, recall that, in American's case at least, it was the corporation that approached the bargaining unit to increase pay for competitive reasons, not the other way around. So wait for Air Canada or Westjet leadership to feel the heat and welcome them with open arms?
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#12 Post by FICU » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:12 am

Canadian North is salary based. Currently an 8 year scale topped at $14,000 per month. Although the pay isn't quite up with Canada's larger airlines the lifestyle can't be beat. Senior Captains can be home every night and barely break a sweat in a month of flying.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#13 Post by altiplano » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:23 am

FICU wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:12 am
Canadian North is salary based. Currently an 8 year scale topped at $14,000 per month. Although the pay isn't up with orther airlines the lifestyle can't be beat. Senior Captains can be home every night and barely break a sweat in a month of flying.
Is that for up to a certain amount? Like extra pay over 75 or 80 hours or something? Rouge and WestJet are 77.5 guarantees I think so why don't we go with that so we have a somewhat level comparison.

$14K month / 77.5 hours = $181/hr

You raise a good point about Northern carriers. I didn't initially include them because they are somewhat unique, lots of charter also, but I think it's important we get a full picture.
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Last edited by altiplano on Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#14 Post by rudder » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:27 am

There is more than enough empirical evidence that the difference between US and CDN pay at the majors (non currency adjusted) is on the order of 20%.

With the disappearance (generally) of DB Pension plans there is an ability to also factor in the exact company contributions to retirement which is on the order of 15-16.5% in the US.

I have some updated charts from the US and will try to post. Perhaps more distressing than the difference in CA NB pay is the difference in FO NB pay. All majors in US have second year NB FO pay comfortably in six figures.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#15 Post by altiplano » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:45 am

rudder wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:27 am
There is more than enough empirical evidence that the difference between US and CDN pay at the majors (non currency adjusted) is on the order of 20%.

With the disappearance (generally) of DB Pension plans there is an ability to also factor in the exact company contributions to retirement which is on the order of 15-16.5% in the US.

I have some updated charts from the US and will try to post. Perhaps more distressing than the difference in CA NB pay is the difference in FO NB pay. All majors in US have second year NB FO pay comfortably in six figures.
Absolutely rudder.
FO's are even further behind... So much is far far behind... But I thought we had to start somewhere.

Also to be considered:
Lower taxation in the US.
Lower average cost of living in the US.
Just all around better contracts.
Higher profit share.
Better pairing/pay rules.
Fully paid retirement account. Not matched, fully company paid.

When we look at that last one, it's a biggie.

Pension/Retirement plan contributions

AC DB pay 6% + 1.5% / company takes funding holidays
AC TBP pay 7.5% / company pays up to 10.5%
WS no retirement plan
WS ESOP pay 20% / company matches 20%

Delta pay 0% / company pays 16%
United pay 0% / company pays 16%
American pay 0% / company pays 16%
American frozen DB company paid
Alaska pay 0% / company pays 15.5%
Alaska frozen DB company paid
Hawaiian pay 0% / company pays 15%
Hawaiian frozen DB company paid

I'm not sure it's fair to call WS a retirement plan, since it's really a stock match which requires a vesting period sitting in an airline stock, other companies also have stock match programs, but since I think most at WS treat it as their retirement I'll include it.
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Last edited by altiplano on Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#16 Post by rudder » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:13 am

altiplano wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:45 am


Absolutely rudder.
FO's are even further behind... So much is far far behind... But I thought we had to start somewhere.
On a currency adjusted basis, it would not be far fetched to estimate that AC has a 40-50% pilot cost advantage vs the US carriers when calculating CASM.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#17 Post by ActionAxson » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:47 am

I pulled figures off Airlinepilotcentral and threw them all together. Converted to CAD. Not sure the accuracy of APC's numbers (I don't think there are many premiums in there) but from what it looks like, after your 2nd year as an FO you're ahead of an AC captain. Feedback always appreciated.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#18 Post by ant_321 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:57 pm

Eric Janson wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:42 am
Since Top Captain pay is listed perhaps it would also make sense to state how many years it takes to get to this level.

Provides a bit more perspective than just throwing out numbers imho.
Very valid point. Sunwing takes 12 years.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#19 Post by '97 Tercel » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:08 pm

This is one of the more sobering and important threads on this site.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#20 Post by Noo » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:05 pm

ant_321 wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:57 pm
Eric Janson wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:42 am
Since Top Captain pay is listed perhaps it would also make sense to state how many years it takes to get to this level.

Provides a bit more perspective than just throwing out numbers imho.
Very valid point. Sunwing takes 12 years.
Is your time as an FO counted towards that?
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#21 Post by ZBBYLW » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:24 pm

At both Rouge and Mainline its 12 years with the company.

Not sure how FOs are at WS and Sunwing etc but at Rouge on the airbus I made 140k at year 5 for 2017. That's with some OT but still a pretty good work life balance. Some FOs can make more than that if you're willing to work more days.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#22 Post by ant_321 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:46 pm

Noo wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:05 pm
ant_321 wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:57 pm
Eric Janson wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:42 am
Since Top Captain pay is listed perhaps it would also make sense to state how many years it takes to get to this level.

Provides a bit more perspective than just throwing out numbers imho.
Very valid point. Sunwing takes 12 years.
Is your time as an FO counted towards that?
No.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#23 Post by av8ts » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:53 am

I think the American pilots are underpaid. You would have to pay me a hell of a lot more than that to spend that much time around Americans
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#24 Post by altiplano » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:32 am

av8ts wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:53 am
I think the American pilots are underpaid. You would have to pay me a hell of a lot more than that to spend that much time around Americans
I like Americans. There are a lot of great corners in that country, and some not so great... Kind of like most countries. I might disagree with some of their national issues and foreign policy, but I usually appreciate them individually.

I could sure find a nice corner to live in, with some people I could get along just fine with, for a 50% higher wage, 2/3 the tax, and 15% lower cost of living...
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

#25 Post by altiplano » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:50 am

Air North pay added.

Still looking for First Air, Flair, and Enerjet.
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