North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

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bringerofrain
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by bringerofrain » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:35 pm

Spirt pilots just got a 43% average raise:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spir ... SKBN1FK3AE

How can Canadian wages be going completely the opposite way?
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altiplano
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by altiplano » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:20 pm

Looks like they still have to get the vote done...

Reviewing the Spirit section on airlinepilotforum.com it looks like maybe not a done deal? Some definite opponents.

Nonetheless to get an idea of what they have on the table...

Current est. 320 CA rate at Spirit

$232 - (185USD)

Article says average 43% pay increase. If we call it 40% for senior Captain's to get a ballpark... That's slightly more than Alaska, slightly less than American and about on par with Southwest...

$324 - (259USD)

Their slogan through this negotiation has been:

"Discount Flights, NOT Discount Pilots"

Yet here they are, already making about 8% more than the highest paid Canadian pilots on the same/similar type, at pretty much the ULCCest of all the ULCCs in the US. And still about to take 40+% gains...

Who is the "Discount Pilot"?

Not the lowest paid 737/320 pilot in the US...

The discount pilot is the highest paid pilots in Canada.

We all are the discount pilots.
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monkey
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by monkey » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:16 pm

I think its pretty clear the pilot groups in Canada need to do a much better job of working together / start pushing for more common goals so we stop under cutting each other. Nationally if we had our act together we wouldn't be where we are today. It will only keep getting worse unless we can find a way to get all on the same page.
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rudder
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by rudder » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:30 pm

I have spreadsheets of US pay rates and retirement but they do not draw the full picture.

Go to airline pilot central forums and they are posting YE2017 pay. 3rd year FO’s making USD$200k.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by '97 Tercel » Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:09 pm

So who are the pilots represented by in each of the US carriers listed earlier? Mostly ALPA down there?

I just can't believe the pay difference south of the border. WTF
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by mijbil » Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:18 pm

monkey wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:16 pm
I think its pretty clear the pilot groups in Canada need to do a much better job of working together / start pushing for more common goals so we stop under cutting each other. Nationally if we had our act together we wouldn't be where we are today. It will only keep getting worse unless we can find a way to get all on the same page.
Agree completely. I'm currently an FO on the 37 at a smaller carrier. I can't go down the Swoop trail but am told via the jungle telegraph that there will be other FO's - who have sat right side far longer than I - who might go for it. I can't blame them in a way since the current company is status quo and likely will be for a long time. WS mainline is no longer the happiest place on earth (after Disneyland) and for some AC is either a bridge too far (moving to TO on $50K!!) or a bridge they haven't extended (PFO). I get why they would go for it.
Personally, I plan to vote with my feet - westward - so far in fact that it's east. Swoop? GreGG can pound hot beach sand up where he thinks the sun shines from. For the left seaters who run the show in the various groups/MEC's etc - get some more baksheesh to the FO's or the exodus will continue is my expectation.
Is the grass greener? In terms of $$ yes. Lifestyle - likely no, so some will stay
If my sacrifices to the chief god of aviation - COFFEE - pay off, and pilot is included under NAFTA - then CIAO - the commute will be shorter.

And for those who might think to label me as an entitled millennial who didn't "Pay dues up north" and wants a left seat in 18 months- I did pay but in a different way. I paid with my soul - 20 years in the Air Force.

Up yer kilt!
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infiniteregulus
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by infiniteregulus » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:43 pm

I wouldn't necessarily compare rates directly with the US carriers as the economic landscapes are different. There's a reason there's an exchange rate hahaha. That being said, the trend should be equivalent in that raises are in order for Canadian pilot just as they were for Americans. Dollar for dollar though, I can understand the lower pay in Canada. It's a smaller country in population and a larger country in area, so low density. That goes for any country in the world really. One should almost compare pilot pay compared to average population densities. In the end though, yes, raises are an absolute necessity at this point in time.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by eyebrow737 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:16 pm

infiniteregulus wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:43 pm
. Dollar for dollar though, I can understand the lower pay in Canada. It's a smaller country in population and a larger country in area, so low density. That goes for any country in the world really..
By that yard stick Canadians should always be paid a lot less than anywhere in the civilized world.

Canada:3.67 persons per sq km
Australia 3.18 persons per sq km

(2012 Numbers)
Average First Year Captain
737 Qantas: $225,041
320 JetStar: $179,816

FO
737 Qantas: $144,027
320 JetStar: $116,880

Lowcost Jetstar 320 FO earns more than first year 767 captain at Cargojet and far more than a first year swoop captain flying same class

Not to talk much about AC FO.

Too many Canadians for too long have made excuses for pay, either saying what you have said or this is the price we have for living in such a wonderful country.

The fact remains. There are no excuses.

It is time to get MAD.

(If you want to cringe more take a look at Aussie pay. Note first page is 2011. Pay has steadily increased since)

https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-ze ... on-13.html
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by Dockjock » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:09 am

Why get torqued about FO pay when you can be a captain at AC within 3 yrs. The “eat our young” line is dead and buried. Leave that for a downturn, when people are stuck in those positions. Today, it just isn’t the case. I wouldn’t vote to put more money on new hires, who are coming in with less and less experience, a trend that looks like will continue to plumb new depths in the next decade. FO pay should be linked to captain pay, and captain pay should be going up. So you’re covered. Enough with the focus on FO’s, jeezus. Peek around the corner, as somebody above said.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by '97 Tercel » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:55 am

Yes, who cares what FO's make because they will upgrade to captain one day anyway.


Image
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by DutyFree » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:17 am

Many variables overall, however it's impossible to deny that Canadian pilots are some of the lowest paid of all G7 nations possibly even g20.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by express315 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:16 am

Flair $144 at year nine, top.
Pension -employee 4%/company 4%, changes to both 5% after year 15.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by dumbbell daddy » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:23 am

This thread is so depressing.......
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by altiplano » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:49 am

The first post of the thread has been updated with all the pay rates so far...

First Air and Enerjet still to fill in.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by bezerker » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:24 am

All union contracts are available online.

http://negotech.labour.gc.ca

First Air has a somewhat complicated pay scale. My calculations show 2018 737 Captain top pay to be about $179k.

But I could be way off.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by LennyLeonard » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:27 pm

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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by CRJ705 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:30 pm

It's just absurd how much cheaper Canadian pilots are working for compared to our counterparts south of the border... [all figures CAD]

Imagine a flight from YYZ to PEK vs. a flight from DTW to PEK. Basically same flight.

Delta DTW to PEK [A350]

2 Captains @ $423
2 First Officers @ $284
Cockpit cost per hour: $1414

Air Canada YYZ to PEK [B77W]

1 Captain @ $298
2 First Officers @ $190
1 Relief Pilot @ $75 [assumes mid-status pay]
Cockpit cost per hour: $753

Canadian pilots doing what is essentially the same flight for 53% of the wages...and they're flying a larger plane (77W v. 350).

But...those Canadian pilots get the privilege of being based in a place with much higher taxes and much higher housing prices.

Delta runs long-haul flights with 2 CPT/2 FO. No relief pilots at lower pay. Many more widebody Captain jobs created because of there being 2 captains instead of 1.

But let me give you another example!

Delta CDG to DTW [A330]

1 Captain @ $397
2 First Officers @ $271
Cockpit cost per hour: $939

Air Canada CDG to YYZ [B789]

1 Captain @ $274
1 First Officer @ $176
Cockpit cost per hour: $450

Air Canada only having to pay 48% of the wages of Delta for what is an equivalent flight (though AC pilots again operating a slightly larger plane).

Majors in America have 3 pilots on flights over 8 hours.

Air Canada has a third pilot only on flights over 9 hours. Conveniently, all of the Western European returns are between 8 and 9 hours, just under the threshold.

Eastern/Southern Europe flights >9 hours done mostly by Rouge...no augmentation at all...two pilots even on an 11 hour flight from Athens to Toronto. Same scenario for a 10 hour Westjet flight between London and Vancouver.

Some things pilots at the American majors don't seem to be subject to much of:

- Three day pairing with evening flight to destination on Day 1 and morning return on Day 3 for 5-6 hours' credit. [ROUGE]
With a 1/4 guarantee like all American majors have (as far as I know), this trip should be worth at least 9-10 hours.

- Overnight stand-ups. 12-14 hour continuous duty when your body thinks you should be sleeping. Several times a month.

- Evening to morning trips where same crew works evening flight to a destination (even 3-5 hours away) then the return flight overnight in the same duty.

Okay okay, one more pay comparison, just for fun...

American 737
1 Captain @ $331
1 First Officer [Year 2!] @ $165
Cockpit cost per hour: $496

Swoop 737
1 Captain @ $103
1 First Officer @ $55
Cockpit cost per hour: $158

Flying the same planes a few miles north for 32% of the wages....priceless!
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by '97 Tercel » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:30 pm

:shock:
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by confusedalot » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:14 am

When are the Canadian union contracts up for renegotiation?
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by mbav8r » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:54 pm

Around the time of the next recession :lol:
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by confusedalot » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:29 pm

I was afraid of that :cry:
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by altiplano » Sat May 26, 2018 1:06 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:49 pm
I thought it would be helpful to see where we stand on 320/737 pay in this country and how we compare to our immediate neighbours.

Top Captain rate, rounded to the dollar
Blended day night if applicable
Not including premiums if applicable
Displayed in CAD on left
1 US Dollar equals 1.24 Canadian Dollar

$216 Air Canada
$210 Westjet

$205 Rouge
$199 Sunwing
$195 Transat

$181 Canadian North
$160 Air North
$XXX First Air

$131 Swoop
$XXX Enerjet
$144 Flair

US Legacy
$332 Delta - $267 USD
$328 United - $264 USD
$327 American - $263 USD
$312 Alaska - $251 USD
$304 Hawaiian - $245 USD

US LCC/ULCC
$323 Spirit - $259 USD - unconfirmed
$321 Southwest - $258 USD
$312 Virgin - $251 USD
$276 Allegiant - $222 USD
$272 Jet Blue - $219 USD

First Air, Enerjet numbers to go...

For some perspective as to where we were 15 years ago:

$214 Air Canada 2003 320
$271 inflation adjusted to 2018
I feel like this thread is worth a bump to remind us of how far behind Canadian Airline Pilot wages are with our industry peers.

Sadly our dollar is even worse @ $1.30 exchange now.

Stay thirsty.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by av8ts » Sat May 26, 2018 1:20 pm

The US numbers look like crap to me. They would have to be a lot higher to get me to live in merica. Europe now, I would work for a lot less
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by Inverted2 » Sat May 26, 2018 2:53 pm

av8ts wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 1:20 pm
The US numbers look like crap to me. They would have to be a lot higher to get me to live in merica. Europe now, I would work for a lot less
There’s lots of really good parts of the USA if you stay away from the major cities. Been to Europe lately? Parts of it will be under sharia law in a few years. I’d take living with some red necks south of the border any day for those pay numbers. (And way less income tax too!)
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by altiplano » Sat May 26, 2018 3:41 pm

That's some ignorant perspective on the US.

Big country with some great places and people.

Sure, lots of places (and people) I wouldn't want to go near in the US, but that's not much different from here... There are PLENTY of places I would happily hang my hat...

Plus better work conditions, better wages, better contracts, lower cost of living... better climate... I'm closing in on an age that I calculate I'd be better to stay where I am in Canada, but if the border opened today, I'd leave the DB pension behind and be gone in a New York minute... Even then, I'd take a long look, certainly if the delta continues to widen.

As for Europe, I'd go there too.

I'd be interested to see what BA, Lufthansa, KLM, etc. are paying... I bet we are similarly behind, if not on the top end, certainly in the early years... How about Qantas? Air New Zealand?
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