North America 737/320 Pay Round-up
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up
It's just absurd how much cheaper Canadian pilots are working for compared to our counterparts south of the border... [all figures CAD]
Imagine a flight from YYZ to PEK vs. a flight from DTW to PEK. Basically same flight.
Delta DTW to PEK [A350]
2 Captains @ $423
2 First Officers @ $284
Cockpit cost per hour: $1414
Air Canada YYZ to PEK [B77W]
1 Captain @ $298
2 First Officers @ $190
1 Relief Pilot @ $75 [assumes mid-status pay]
Cockpit cost per hour: $753
Canadian pilots doing what is essentially the same flight for 53% of the wages...and they're flying a larger plane (77W v. 350).
But...those Canadian pilots get the privilege of being based in a place with much higher taxes and much higher housing prices.
Delta runs long-haul flights with 2 CPT/2 FO. No relief pilots at lower pay. Many more widebody Captain jobs created because of there being 2 captains instead of 1.
But let me give you another example!
Delta CDG to DTW [A330]
1 Captain @ $397
2 First Officers @ $271
Cockpit cost per hour: $939
Air Canada CDG to YYZ [B789]
1 Captain @ $274
1 First Officer @ $176
Cockpit cost per hour: $450
Air Canada only having to pay 48% of the wages of Delta for what is an equivalent flight (though AC pilots again operating a slightly larger plane).
Majors in America have 3 pilots on flights over 8 hours.
Air Canada has a third pilot only on flights over 9 hours. Conveniently, all of the Western European returns are between 8 and 9 hours, just under the threshold.
Eastern/Southern Europe flights >9 hours done mostly by Rouge...no augmentation at all...two pilots even on an 11 hour flight from Athens to Toronto. Same scenario for a 10 hour Westjet flight between London and Vancouver.
Some things pilots at the American majors don't seem to be subject to much of:
- Three day pairing with evening flight to destination on Day 1 and morning return on Day 3 for 5-6 hours' credit. [ROUGE]
With a 1/4 guarantee like all American majors have (as far as I know), this trip should be worth at least 9-10 hours.
- Overnight stand-ups. 12-14 hour continuous duty when your body thinks you should be sleeping. Several times a month.
- Evening to morning trips where same crew works evening flight to a destination (even 3-5 hours away) then the return flight overnight in the same duty.
Okay okay, one more pay comparison, just for fun...
American 737
1 Captain @ $331
1 First Officer [Year 2!] @ $165
Cockpit cost per hour: $496
Swoop 737
1 Captain @ $103
1 First Officer @ $55
Cockpit cost per hour: $158
Flying the same planes a few miles north for 32% of the wages....priceless!
Imagine a flight from YYZ to PEK vs. a flight from DTW to PEK. Basically same flight.
Delta DTW to PEK [A350]
2 Captains @ $423
2 First Officers @ $284
Cockpit cost per hour: $1414
Air Canada YYZ to PEK [B77W]
1 Captain @ $298
2 First Officers @ $190
1 Relief Pilot @ $75 [assumes mid-status pay]
Cockpit cost per hour: $753
Canadian pilots doing what is essentially the same flight for 53% of the wages...and they're flying a larger plane (77W v. 350).
But...those Canadian pilots get the privilege of being based in a place with much higher taxes and much higher housing prices.
Delta runs long-haul flights with 2 CPT/2 FO. No relief pilots at lower pay. Many more widebody Captain jobs created because of there being 2 captains instead of 1.
But let me give you another example!
Delta CDG to DTW [A330]
1 Captain @ $397
2 First Officers @ $271
Cockpit cost per hour: $939
Air Canada CDG to YYZ [B789]
1 Captain @ $274
1 First Officer @ $176
Cockpit cost per hour: $450
Air Canada only having to pay 48% of the wages of Delta for what is an equivalent flight (though AC pilots again operating a slightly larger plane).
Majors in America have 3 pilots on flights over 8 hours.
Air Canada has a third pilot only on flights over 9 hours. Conveniently, all of the Western European returns are between 8 and 9 hours, just under the threshold.
Eastern/Southern Europe flights >9 hours done mostly by Rouge...no augmentation at all...two pilots even on an 11 hour flight from Athens to Toronto. Same scenario for a 10 hour Westjet flight between London and Vancouver.
Some things pilots at the American majors don't seem to be subject to much of:
- Three day pairing with evening flight to destination on Day 1 and morning return on Day 3 for 5-6 hours' credit. [ROUGE]
With a 1/4 guarantee like all American majors have (as far as I know), this trip should be worth at least 9-10 hours.
- Overnight stand-ups. 12-14 hour continuous duty when your body thinks you should be sleeping. Several times a month.
- Evening to morning trips where same crew works evening flight to a destination (even 3-5 hours away) then the return flight overnight in the same duty.
Okay okay, one more pay comparison, just for fun...
American 737
1 Captain @ $331
1 First Officer [Year 2!] @ $165
Cockpit cost per hour: $496
Swoop 737
1 Captain @ $103
1 First Officer @ $55
Cockpit cost per hour: $158
Flying the same planes a few miles north for 32% of the wages....priceless!
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- confusedalot
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up
When are the Canadian union contracts up for renegotiation?
Attempting to understand the world. I have not succeeded.
veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.
veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.
Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up
Around the time of the next recession
- confusedalot
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up
I was afraid of that
Attempting to understand the world. I have not succeeded.
veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.
veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.
Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up
I feel like this thread is worth a bump to remind us of how far behind Canadian Airline Pilot wages are with our industry peers.altiplano wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:49 pm I thought it would be helpful to see where we stand on 320/737 pay in this country and how we compare to our immediate neighbours.
Top Captain rate, rounded to the dollar
Blended day night if applicable
Not including premiums if applicable
Displayed in CAD on left
1 US Dollar equals 1.24 Canadian Dollar
$216 Air Canada
$210 Westjet
$205 Rouge
$199 Sunwing
$195 Transat
$181 Canadian North
$160 Air North
$XXX First Air
$131 Swoop
$XXX Enerjet
$144 Flair
US Legacy
$332 Delta - $267 USD
$328 United - $264 USD
$327 American - $263 USD
$312 Alaska - $251 USD
$304 Hawaiian - $245 USD
US LCC/ULCC
$323 Spirit - $259 USD - unconfirmed
$321 Southwest - $258 USD
$312 Virgin - $251 USD
$276 Allegiant - $222 USD
$272 Jet Blue - $219 USD
First Air, Enerjet numbers to go...
For some perspective as to where we were 15 years ago:
$214 Air Canada 2003 320
$271 inflation adjusted to 2018
Sadly our dollar is even worse @ $1.30 exchange now.
Stay thirsty.
Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up
The US numbers look like crap to me. They would have to be a lot higher to get me to live in merica. Europe now, I would work for a lot less
Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up
There’s lots of really good parts of the USA if you stay away from the major cities. Been to Europe lately? Parts of it will be under sharia law in a few years. I’d take living with some red necks south of the border any day for those pay numbers. (And way less income tax too!)
Let’s Go Brandon
Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up
That's some ignorant perspective on the US.
Big country with some great places and people.
Sure, lots of places (and people) I wouldn't want to go near in the US, but that's not much different from here... There are PLENTY of places I would happily hang my hat...
Plus better work conditions, better wages, better contracts, lower cost of living... better climate... I'm closing in on an age that I calculate I'd be better to stay where I am in Canada, but if the border opened today, I'd leave the DB pension behind and be gone in a New York minute... Even then, I'd take a long look, certainly if the delta continues to widen.
As for Europe, I'd go there too.
I'd be interested to see what BA, Lufthansa, KLM, etc. are paying... I bet we are similarly behind, if not on the top end, certainly in the early years... How about Qantas? Air New Zealand?
Big country with some great places and people.
Sure, lots of places (and people) I wouldn't want to go near in the US, but that's not much different from here... There are PLENTY of places I would happily hang my hat...
Plus better work conditions, better wages, better contracts, lower cost of living... better climate... I'm closing in on an age that I calculate I'd be better to stay where I am in Canada, but if the border opened today, I'd leave the DB pension behind and be gone in a New York minute... Even then, I'd take a long look, certainly if the delta continues to widen.
As for Europe, I'd go there too.
I'd be interested to see what BA, Lufthansa, KLM, etc. are paying... I bet we are similarly behind, if not on the top end, certainly in the early years... How about Qantas? Air New Zealand?
Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up
Yes I go to Europe quite often. And while I disagree with the snowflake SJW on the far left, that is some far-right propaganda right there
Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up
Recent update that Air North pilots have made some significant pay gains.
Was at $160/hr for a step 16 737 Captain.
Now at $205/hr for step 16 737 Captain.
Congratulations to my 4N colleagues for making such notable improvements.
I also look pleasure in crossing out S̶w̶o̶o̶p̶'s anemic $131/hr... congrats to my Westjet colleagues for shutting down bottom of the barrel rate. I look forward to seeing the gains you can attain.
Any other number updates please PM me, and I'll try to keep this list current, I never did get Enerjet or First Air rates.
$216 Air Canada
$210 Westjet
$205 Rouge
$199 Sunwing
$195 Transat
$181 Canadian North
$205 Air North
$̶1̶6̶0̶ ̶A̶i̶r̶ ̶N̶o̶r̶t̶h̶
$XXX First Air
̶$̶1̶3̶1̶ ̶S̶w̶o̶o̶p̶ see Westjet rates
$̶X̶X̶X̶ ̶E̶n̶e̶r̶j̶e̶t̶
$144 Flair
US Legacy
$332 Delta - $267 USD
$328 United - $264 USD
$327 American - $263 USD
$312 Alaska - $251 USD
$304 Hawaiian - $245 USD
US LCC/ULCC
$323 Spirit - $259 USD - unconfirmed
$321 Southwest - $258 USD
$312 Virgin - $251 USD
$276 Allegiant - $222 USD
$272 Jet Blue - $219 USD
Was at $160/hr for a step 16 737 Captain.
Now at $205/hr for step 16 737 Captain.
Congratulations to my 4N colleagues for making such notable improvements.
I also look pleasure in crossing out S̶w̶o̶o̶p̶'s anemic $131/hr... congrats to my Westjet colleagues for shutting down bottom of the barrel rate. I look forward to seeing the gains you can attain.
Any other number updates please PM me, and I'll try to keep this list current, I never did get Enerjet or First Air rates.
$216 Air Canada
$210 Westjet
$205 Rouge
$199 Sunwing
$195 Transat
$181 Canadian North
$205 Air North
$̶1̶6̶0̶ ̶A̶i̶r̶ ̶N̶o̶r̶t̶h̶
$XXX First Air
̶$̶1̶3̶1̶ ̶S̶w̶o̶o̶p̶ see Westjet rates
$̶X̶X̶X̶ ̶E̶n̶e̶r̶j̶e̶t̶
$144 Flair
US Legacy
$332 Delta - $267 USD
$328 United - $264 USD
$327 American - $263 USD
$312 Alaska - $251 USD
$304 Hawaiian - $245 USD
US LCC/ULCC
$323 Spirit - $259 USD - unconfirmed
$321 Southwest - $258 USD
$312 Virgin - $251 USD
$276 Allegiant - $222 USD
$272 Jet Blue - $219 USD
Last edited by altiplano on Mon May 28, 2018 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up
Enerjet doesn't have any 737s anymore. All they have is a Twin Otter to keep their AOC active.
Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up
Where did you see that Swoop rates are going to be the same as Westjet rates?
Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up
Isn’t it implied? Why would they do it for less? Mainline Westjet is already flying them at the same rates as rouge and rouge has proven to be quite profitable.
Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up
Pay rates have yet to be negotiated/agreed upon. If they can’t agree then it’ll be arbitrated.
Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up
Don't get your panties in a knot.
It's apparent that $131/hr at Swoop doesn't exist anymore.
It's apparent that we're all still behind from where we should be.
I'll update it as more information becomes available.
It's apparent that $131/hr at Swoop doesn't exist anymore.
It's apparent that we're all still behind from where we should be.
I'll update it as more information becomes available.
- confusedalot
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up
Wish I were born later. I would be worth two million at least by age 35. Probably more.
A mere 5 years ago, canjet captain could only hope to make 140K after ten years. 85K was the starting salary. Much worse for the jetsgo's and Canada 3000's of the world that preceeded them. Someone on this blog stated that a westjet left seater was paid 60K at that time. Look at them now.
The power of supply and demand..........that's all that is operating here.
Timing is everything.
A mere 5 years ago, canjet captain could only hope to make 140K after ten years. 85K was the starting salary. Much worse for the jetsgo's and Canada 3000's of the world that preceeded them. Someone on this blog stated that a westjet left seater was paid 60K at that time. Look at them now.
The power of supply and demand..........that's all that is operating here.
Timing is everything.
Attempting to understand the world. I have not succeeded.
veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.
veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.
Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up
First Air has a combination of salary and an hourly "bonus". The top end pay is at year 9 in the captain seat at $10,915 base pay per month, plus $61.62 per hour. There is a pay guarantee of 740 hours per year that you're topped up to if you don't meet it by the end of the year. Calculated out that means a base year pay of $176,578, if you divide that by the 740 hours you make $238 per hour. Of course each hour after that 740 hours you are only making $61 per hour. Weird pay scale. On top of that, since everything isn't about money, you get 11 GDO's per month, and you don't bid your schedule. You are allowed to ask for 5 days you would like to have some of your GDO's fall on, and crew scheduling will "try to accommodate".