Reviewing the Spirit section on airlinepilotforum.com it looks like maybe not a done deal? Some definite opponents.
Nonetheless to get an idea of what they have on the table...
Current est. 320 CA rate at Spirit
$232 - (185USD)
Article says average 43% pay increase. If we call it 40% for senior Captain's to get a ballpark... That's slightly more than Alaska, slightly less than American and about on par with Southwest...
$324 - (259USD)
Their slogan through this negotiation has been:
"Discount Flights, NOT Discount Pilots"
Yet here they are, already making about 8% more than the highest paid Canadian pilots on the same/similar type, at pretty much the ULCCest of all the ULCCs in the US. And still about to take 40+% gains...
Who is the "Discount Pilot"?
Not the lowest paid 737/320 pilot in the US...
The discount pilot is the highest paid pilots in Canada.
We all are the discount pilots.
Go to airline pilot central forums and they are posting YE2017 pay. 3rd year FO’s making USD$200k.
I just can't believe the pay difference south of the border. WTF
Agree completely. I'm currently an FO on the 37 at a smaller carrier. I can't go down the Swoop trail but am told via the jungle telegraph that there will be other FO's - who have sat right side far longer than I - who might go for it. I can't blame them in a way since the current company is status quo and likely will be for a long time. WS mainline is no longer the happiest place on earth (after Disneyland) and for some AC is either a bridge too far (moving to TO on $50K!!) or a bridge they haven't extended (PFO). I get why they would go for it.monkey wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:16 pmI think its pretty clear the pilot groups in Canada need to do a much better job of working together / start pushing for more common goals so we stop under cutting each other. Nationally if we had our act together we wouldn't be where we are today. It will only keep getting worse unless we can find a way to get all on the same page.
Personally, I plan to vote with my feet - westward - so far in fact that it's east. Swoop? GreGG can pound hot beach sand up where he thinks the sun shines from. For the left seaters who run the show in the various groups/MEC's etc - get some more baksheesh to the FO's or the exodus will continue is my expectation.
Is the grass greener? In terms of $$ yes. Lifestyle - likely no, so some will stay
If my sacrifices to the chief god of aviation - COFFEE - pay off, and pilot is included under NAFTA - then CIAO - the commute will be shorter.
And for those who might think to label me as an entitled millennial who didn't "Pay dues up north" and wants a left seat in 18 months- I did pay but in a different way. I paid with my soul - 20 years in the Air Force.
Up yer kilt!
By that yard stick Canadians should always be paid a lot less than anywhere in the civilized world.
Canada:3.67 persons per sq km
Australia 3.18 persons per sq km
Average First Year Captain
737 Qantas: $225,041
320 JetStar: $179,816
737 Qantas: $144,027
320 JetStar: $116,880
Lowcost Jetstar 320 FO earns more than first year 767 captain at Cargojet and far more than a first year swoop captain flying same class
Not to talk much about AC FO.
Too many Canadians for too long have made excuses for pay, either saying what you have said or this is the price we have for living in such a wonderful country.
The fact remains. There are no excuses.
It is time to get MAD.
(If you want to cringe more take a look at Aussie pay. Note first page is 2011. Pay has steadily increased since)
https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-ze ... on-13.html
First Air has a somewhat complicated pay scale. My calculations show 2018 737 Captain top pay to be about $179k.
But I could be way off.
https://aircanada.mediaroom.com/2018-02 ... al-Results
Imagine a flight from YYZ to PEK vs. a flight from DTW to PEK. Basically same flight.
Delta DTW to PEK [A350]
2 Captains @ $423
2 First Officers @ $284
Cockpit cost per hour: $1414
Air Canada YYZ to PEK [B77W]
1 Captain @ $298
2 First Officers @ $190
1 Relief Pilot @ $75 [assumes mid-status pay]
Cockpit cost per hour: $753
Canadian pilots doing what is essentially the same flight for 53% of the wages...and they're flying a larger plane (77W v. 350).
But...those Canadian pilots get the privilege of being based in a place with much higher taxes and much higher housing prices.
Delta runs long-haul flights with 2 CPT/2 FO. No relief pilots at lower pay. Many more widebody Captain jobs created because of there being 2 captains instead of 1.
But let me give you another example!
Delta CDG to DTW [A330]
1 Captain @ $397
2 First Officers @ $271
Cockpit cost per hour: $939
Air Canada CDG to YYZ [B789]
1 Captain @ $274
1 First Officer @ $176
Cockpit cost per hour: $450
Air Canada only having to pay 48% of the wages of Delta for what is an equivalent flight (though AC pilots again operating a slightly larger plane).
Majors in America have 3 pilots on flights over 8 hours.
Air Canada has a third pilot only on flights over 9 hours. Conveniently, all of the Western European returns are between 8 and 9 hours, just under the threshold.
Eastern/Southern Europe flights >9 hours done mostly by Rouge...no augmentation at all...two pilots even on an 11 hour flight from Athens to Toronto. Same scenario for a 10 hour Westjet flight between London and Vancouver.
Some things pilots at the American majors don't seem to be subject to much of:
- Three day pairing with evening flight to destination on Day 1 and morning return on Day 3 for 5-6 hours' credit. [ROUGE]
With a 1/4 guarantee like all American majors have (as far as I know), this trip should be worth at least 9-10 hours.
- Overnight stand-ups. 12-14 hour continuous duty when your body thinks you should be sleeping. Several times a month.
- Evening to morning trips where same crew works evening flight to a destination (even 3-5 hours away) then the return flight overnight in the same duty.
Okay okay, one more pay comparison, just for fun...
1 Captain @ $331
1 First Officer [Year 2!] @ $165
Cockpit cost per hour: $496
1 Captain @ $103
1 First Officer @ $55
Cockpit cost per hour: $158
Flying the same planes a few miles north for 32% of the wages....priceless!
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I feel like this thread is worth a bump to remind us of how far behind Canadian Airline Pilot wages are with our industry peers.altiplano wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:49 pmI thought it would be helpful to see where we stand on 320/737 pay in this country and how we compare to our immediate neighbours.
Top Captain rate, rounded to the dollar
Blended day night if applicable
Not including premiums if applicable
Displayed in CAD on left
1 US Dollar equals 1.24 Canadian Dollar
$216 Air Canada
$181 Canadian North
$160 Air North
$XXX First Air
$332 Delta - $267 USD
$328 United - $264 USD
$327 American - $263 USD
$312 Alaska - $251 USD
$304 Hawaiian - $245 USD
$323 Spirit - $259 USD - unconfirmed
$321 Southwest - $258 USD
$312 Virgin - $251 USD
$276 Allegiant - $222 USD
$272 Jet Blue - $219 USD
First Air, Enerjet numbers to go...
For some perspective as to where we were 15 years ago:
$214 Air Canada 2003 320
$271 inflation adjusted to 2018
Sadly our dollar is even worse @ $1.30 exchange now.
There’s lots of really good parts of the USA if you stay away from the major cities. Been to Europe lately? Parts of it will be under sharia law in a few years. I’d take living with some red necks south of the border any day for those pay numbers. (And way less income tax too!)
Big country with some great places and people.
Sure, lots of places (and people) I wouldn't want to go near in the US, but that's not much different from here... There are PLENTY of places I would happily hang my hat...
Plus better work conditions, better wages, better contracts, lower cost of living... better climate... I'm closing in on an age that I calculate I'd be better to stay where I am in Canada, but if the border opened today, I'd leave the DB pension behind and be gone in a New York minute... Even then, I'd take a long look, certainly if the delta continues to widen.
As for Europe, I'd go there too.
I'd be interested to see what BA, Lufthansa, KLM, etc. are paying... I bet we are similarly behind, if not on the top end, certainly in the early years... How about Qantas? Air New Zealand?