Swoop hiring foreign scabs

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Rezy
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Re: Swoop hiring foreign scabs

Post by Rezy »

WeedPro2000 wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:25 pm
Marinth wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:35 pm Swoop is not a startup. That’s the point. It’s a company with 100 same type aircraft, with over 1000 type rated pilots, probably another few thousand papplications on file, that refuses to operate with its own pilot group. Hiring foreign pilots to start a new company is one thing. Hiring foreign pilots for a re-brand is entirely different.
Well, if you think it's the same company, you could always ask the CIRB what it thinks. I think you'll be disappointed by the answer. And just so you and other don't engage in revisionist history, the company's plan, when it announced its plans for a ULCC included employing pilots from the WPDL (the One List). Later that day, ALPA announced its plans for a certification vote. In spite of the fact that the ULCC had been announced, a less than overwhelming 61 percent of WJ pilots voted in favour of certifying with ALPA. In doing so, they stated very clearly they no longer wanted a collaborative relationship with the company. They wanted a black and white relationship. They wanted a legal relationship. They got one.

The only people to blame for the lack of WJ pilots in the Swoop saddles are the 61 percent of WJ pilots who voted in ALPA.

Right, it’s ALPA’s fault.... where is swoop getting FA’s from? They aren’t unionized and have the same legal protections in their work agreement as the pilots do. I don’t see the WCCA (cabin crew member association) working collaboratively with the company to retain FA jobs at Swoop. So it has nothing to do with a legal relationship.
The bottom line is WestJet wants cheap labor and now they are willing to get foreign workers to do it.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Swoop hiring foreign scabs

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

complexintentions wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:56 am "Scabs" is the term used for replacement workers who work during a strike. Is Swoop or WestJet on strike? No.
Considering major pilot unions in Canada have called on pilots not to apply for work at Stoop, those who do are figuratively scabs, although not technically as you have stated.
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complexintentions
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Re: Swoop hiring foreign scabs

Post by complexintentions »

That's some serious twisting in the wind to defend a completely incorrect use of a term.

The thing is, no one cares any more what "major pilot unions" are "calling on" (ie warning/threatening) people to do. People have long since figured out that said unions are as completely self-serving as any other stakeholder. Nothing wrong with that, but blacklists stopped being an effective tactic in the 70's - if they even worked then. Mostly they just help angry people stay angry. (Literally, not figuratively.) :mrgreen:

The comment about getting foreign workers to be "cheap labour" is also nonsensical, seeing as they are getting paid more. The whole contract pilot thing is a short-term solution to rapid growth, which is absolutely standard worldwide. Maybe people just need to get out more? I get it, protectionism is becoming more in vogue but bringing in some extra talent to get something started is hardly earth-shattering.

Like I said, I think it's more the realization that lack of access to the trainers at WestJet won't be an impediment to Swoop getting going is what's really pissing people off. The "foreign" angle is a red herring. To be honest it's hardly unpredictable that you would be the one to jump on that, Gilles.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Swoop hiring foreign scabs

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

complexintentions wrote: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:27 pm
The comment about getting foreign workers to be "cheap labour" is also nonsensical, seeing as they are getting paid more. The whole contract pilot thing is a short-term solution to rapid growth, which is absolutely standard worldwide. Maybe people just need to get out more? I get it, protectionism is becoming more in vogue but bringing in some extra talent to get something started is hardly earth-shattering.
At 1200 USD a day, if these guys are on contract and working a typical 90 hour month (18 days), they'll likely be cracking 21000 USD per month - I don't know anyone shy of say the heavy capitans at AC and JS pulling in that kind of dough.

Is it sustainable - not at all.

Scabs....I get where you guys are coming from, but until you guys officially go on strike or lockout - it's just a new work opportunity for the many eastern block 737 drivers to make a killing for 3 months.

Surprised more of the 737 guys from Transat and Sunwing aren't taking an LOA.

S.
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Last edited by schnitzel2k3 on Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
tbaylx
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Re: Swoop hiring foreign scabs

Post by tbaylx »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:36 pm
complexintentions wrote: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:27 pm
The comment about getting foreign workers to be "cheap labour" is also nonsensical, seeing as they are getting paid more. The whole contract pilot thing is a short-term solution to rapid growth, which is absolutely standard worldwide. Maybe people just need to get out more? I get it, protectionism is becoming more in vogue but bringing in some extra talent to get something started is hardly earth-shattering.
Surprised more of the 737 guys from Transat and Sunwing aren't taking an LOA.

S.
Who says they aren't? Might not be foreign pilot's at all on that contract.
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Re: Swoop hiring foreign scabs

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

tbaylx wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:24 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:36 pm
complexintentions wrote: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:27 pm
The comment about getting foreign workers to be "cheap labour" is also nonsensical, seeing as they are getting paid more. The whole contract pilot thing is a short-term solution to rapid growth, which is absolutely standard worldwide. Maybe people just need to get out more? I get it, protectionism is becoming more in vogue but bringing in some extra talent to get something started is hardly earth-shattering.
Surprised more of the 737 guys from Transat and Sunwing aren't taking an LOA.

S.
Who says they aren't? Might not be foreign pilot's at all on that contract.
True, I feel I haven't heard anything from anyone I know at those companies, which coming from me doesn't mean much, but for the Westjetters, is probably a good sign brothers with similar type ratings are sitting on the pseudo strikeline.

It'd be a helluva way to make a couple fistfuls as the Swoop ATM spits money in the air before the ALPA police arrive on scene to shutdown the insanity.

S.
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Re: Swoop hiring foreign scabs

Post by av8ts »

[\quote]



Surprised more of the 737 guys from Transat and Sunwing aren't taking an LOA.

S.
[/quote]

Both Transat and Sunwing are unionized. Can’t imagine them taking LOAs to scab at Swoop
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Swoop hiring foreign scabs

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

av8ts wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:37 am [\quote]



Surprised more of the 737 guys from Transat and Sunwing aren't taking an LOA.

S.
Both Transat and Sunwing are unionized. Can’t imagine them taking LOAs to scab at Swoop
[/quote]

It's not like they're reapplying to their companies after their LOA.

End of the day - if they kept their mouths shut - they'd be significantly richer.

S.
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Re: Swoop hiring foreign scabs

Post by tbaylx »

av8ts wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:37 am [\quote]



Surprised more of the 737 guys from Transat and Sunwing aren't taking an LOA.

S.
Both Transat and Sunwing are unionized. Can’t imagine them taking LOAs to scab at Swoop
[/quote]

It may come as a surprise but few outside of WestJet alpa regard that contract as scabbing.
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Re: Swoop hiring foreign scabs

Post by HansDietrich »

So it's okay for Canadian pilots to work in:
- The Middle East
- Asia
- Maldives
- Caribbean
- India
- Europe
- USA
- Antarctica (well... that one's debatable)

... but not okay for foreign pilots to work here? Where is this sense of entitlement coming from? If Canada doesn't have qualified pilots to fly their 737s, then by all means hire EXPERIENCED foreign pilots. Just because you have 500 hours flying a Navajo, doesn't mean you're qualified to fly a large transport jet.

What about that whole "Blacklist anyone wanting to fly for Swoop!" Or "AC will never touch you if you fly at Swoop". Guess what? The 25 year old Czech 737 F/O doesn't give a sh*t. He's on rotation here, 1 month on 1 month off and goes back to Prague with good money. He's very happy living there, close to his family, friends and most likely hot Czech girlfriend, something that you can only see online.

Now, my stupid jokes aside, any company that can prove to the government that they can't find qualified workers to fill their positions may be able to hire form outside Canada, after going through all the legal means. Do I like it? Nope. Will I go to Swoop? Nope. Do I know any of my friends who will go to Swoop? Nope (at least they say they wont)... So what's the solution? (Yes, get rid of Swoop. Sure, once you get rid of it then "Beep" and "Sweep" and "Funn" and some other low cost airline with an idiotic name will pop up, like unwanted mushrooms after rainfall.)
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Re: Swoop hiring foreign scabs

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Westjet and Encore pilots recently voted to join ALPA, their first Union affiliation. While their first contract is being negotiated, their employer, Westjet, decides to create a wholly owned subsidiary, using B-737-800s running in parallel to Westjet's.

Same owner. Same shareholders. Same aircraft. Same country. Same taxes. Same landing fees. Same Navigation fees. Same insurance. Same fuel costs. Same maintenance costs. Same laws.

They could have taken some mainline aircraft, increased the number of seat to 189 and operated them out of Abbotsford and Hamilton as Westjet used to do in their early "low cost" days, calling it a low cost service like Air Canada had tried with Zip and Tango.

But that would not achieve their real objective.

The nature and the timing of Stoop make the intentions of Westjet's management crystal clear : break the union.
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Re: Swoop hiring foreign scabs

Post by WeedPro2000 »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:33 am Westjet and Encore pilots recently voted to join ALPA, their first Union affiliation. While their first contract is being negotiated, their employer, Westjet, decides to create a wholly owned subsidiary, using B-737-800s running in parallel to Westjet's.

Same owner. Same shareholders. Same aircraft. Same country. Same taxes. Same landing fees. Same Navigation fees. Same insurance. Same fuel costs. Same maintenance costs. Same laws.

They could have taken some mainline aircraft, increased the number of seat to 189 and operated them out of Abbotsford and Hamilton as Westjet used to do in their early "low cost" days, calling it a low cost service like Air Canada had tried with Zip and Tango.

But that would not achieve their real objective.

The nature and the timing of Stoop make the intentions of Westjet's management crystal clear : break the union.
[
AMONG OTHER THINGS, THE QUOTED POST IS HISTORICAL REVISONIST MALE BOVINE EXCRETA!


Gilles has the order wrong. ALPA did not start negotiating their first contract with WJ pilots, and then WJ decided to form Swoop. This is a lie. Get it? A lie. WJ has been looking at the ULCC space for a few years, worried about the entry of a competitor in that space. Here's the order hoe things happened:

1. WestJet announces intention to form a ULCC on April 20, 2017 (Hitler's birthday; 4/20: International "smoke a spliff day")
2. ALPA, later that same day, announces intention to hold a certification vote
3. May 12, 2017 ALPA is successful with the certification vote and forms first union at WJ

Everyone clear on the process and the timing? Gilles?
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Re: Swoop hiring foreign scabs

Post by WeedPro2000 »

Perhaps Gilles could explain how successful Zip and Tango were.
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Re: Swoop hiring foreign scabs

Post by ggofp »

I'm getting tired of people narrowing the definition of scab to only strikebreakers. Below is the Merriam-Webster dictionary's definition of a scab

a : a contemptible person
b (1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2) : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3) : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms

I maintain that anyone aiding westjet management in breaking alpa is indeed a contemptible person, a SCAB, in the same way as those who took jobs at georgian and skyregional early on that forced Jazz's concessionary contract in 2015.

fire away!
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Re: Swoop hiring foreign scabs

Post by prop2jet »

WeedPro2000 wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:22 am
Gilles Hudicourt wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:33 am Westjet and Encore pilots recently voted to join ALPA, their first Union affiliation. While their first contract is being negotiated, their employer, Westjet, decides to create a wholly owned subsidiary, using B-737-800s running in parallel to Westjet's.

Same owner. Same shareholders. Same aircraft. Same country. Same taxes. Same landing fees. Same Navigation fees. Same insurance. Same fuel costs. Same maintenance costs. Same laws.

They could have taken some mainline aircraft, increased the number of seat to 189 and operated them out of Abbotsford and Hamilton as Westjet used to do in their early "low cost" days, calling it a low cost service like Air Canada had tried with Zip and Tango.

But that would not achieve their real objective.

The nature and the timing of Stoop make the intentions of Westjet's management crystal clear : break the union.


[
AMONG OTHER THINGS, THE QUOTED POST IS HISTORICAL REVISONIST MALE BOVINE EXCRETA!


Gilles has the order wrong. ALPA did not start negotiating their first contract with WJ pilots, and then WJ decided to form Swoop. This is a lie. Get it? A lie. WJ has been looking at the ULCC space for a few years, worried about the entry of a competitor in that space. Here's the order hoe things happened:

1. WestJet announces intention to form a ULCC on April 20, 2017 (Hitler's birthday; 4/20: International "smoke a spliff day")
2. ALPA, later that same day, announces intention to hold a certification vote
3. May 12, 2017 ALPA is successful with the certification vote and forms first union at WJ

Everyone clear on the process and the timing? Gilles?
Could matter less as far as timing goes. A pilot's Union at WJ was inevitable and crystal clear. The certification of ALPA did not happen overnight either. Management at WJ surely saw what was going to happen...
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Re: Swoop hiring foreign scabs

Post by tbaylx »

ggofp wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:36 am I'm getting tired of people narrowing the definition of scab to only strikebreakers. Below is the Merriam-Webster dictionary's definition of a scab

a : a contemptible person
b (1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2) : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3) : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms

I maintain that anyone aiding westjet management in breaking alpa is indeed a contemptible person, a SCAB, in the same way as those who took jobs at georgian and skyregional early on that forced Jazz's concessionary contract in 2015.

fire away!
Contract guys are making considerably more than union wages. But feel free to call them whatever you’d like, doubt they’ll really care what you think.
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Re: Swoop hiring foreign scabs

Post by WeedPro2000 »

ggofp wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:36 am... I maintain that anyone aiding westjet management in breaking alpa is indeed a contemptible person, a SCAB, in the same way as those who took jobs at georgian and skyregional early on that forced Jazz's concessionary contract in 2015.

fire away!
And everyone who took a job at WestJet in the past 15 years, and forced ACPA to accept Rouge with it's lower wages and working conditions is a scab. A scurrilous scoundrel of a scab!

Huzzah!!!

Using your definition, I'm a scab. So what? You think that matters somehow? What are you going to do? Call me names?

Whatever...
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Re: Swoop hiring foreign scabs

Post by ggofp »

wow, you are casting the net out further than I. OK, scabs you were and so too the Encore guys that by accepting the terms they did, started the regional race to the bottom we see now. What I believe is that by working for a non union company that does not enjoy collective bargaining rights the earning potential of this profession in this country suffers.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Swoop hiring foreign scabs

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

WeedPro2000 wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:22 am
[
AMONG OTHER THINGS, THE QUOTED POST IS HISTORICAL REVISONIST MALE BOVINE EXCRETA!


Gilles has the order wrong. ALPA did not start negotiating their first contract with WJ pilots, and then WJ decided to form Swoop. This is a lie. Get it? A lie. WJ has been looking at the ULCC space for a few years, worried about the entry of a competitor in that space. Here's the order hoe things happened:

1. WestJet announces intention to form a ULCC on April 20, 2017 (Hitler's birthday; 4/20: International "smoke a spliff day")
2. ALPA, later that same day, announces intention to hold a certification vote
3. May 12, 2017 ALPA is successful with the certification vote and forms first union at WJ

Everyone clear on the process and the timing? Gilles?
So you claim there is no relation between one and the other ?

Or rather that the Union drive was announced in reaction to the No Frill airline ?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/west-jet ... -1.4077103

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/westjet ... -1.4079005
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Swoop hiring foreign scabs

Post by C.W.E. »

one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms
Then I must have been a scab because I never worked for a unionised company.

I always worked on non union terms because I didn't need a union to make good wages.
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