Emirates

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mixturerich
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Emirates

#1 Post by mixturerich » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:48 pm

Nobody ever talks about them here. I’ve read a lot of nasty stuff about working for Emirates on PPRUNE. But I don’t know a lot of people that work for them and know the whole story. Anyone have friends that work there that can shed some insight on how bad or good it really is over there? From what I gather, Dubai is fun, but the rosters suck, and that’s the gist of it.
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Re: Emirates

#2 Post by iamnomaverick » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:58 pm

Careful with those Ppruners. Lot of divas who would be complaining anywhere they go.

I recently made the jump to the sandbox and joined their younger sister company across the ramp, I also read a lot of terrible things on pprune but luckily I have friends that work here and they gave me the real story.

Working and living in the Middle East is one thing, working/living in Dubai is another. Dubai is the closest you will get to a modern western lifestyle outside of North America and Europe. The city itself is clean, safe,has lots of amenities and services and lots to see and do. Of course there will always be the little things that never change (bad drivers, inefficiency, bureaucracy and lack of punctuality) but I guess you can't have it all. Also Dubai CAN be a very expensive if you are not careful,tempting things always go on "sale", credit is easy and rent vary greatly depending on if you want to live near the seaside or the plam or if you decide to be frugal and live 20-minute drive from the beach (about 30%-50% cheaper).

As for Emirates, I have friends that work there on the 777 and from what I understand things have been getting better recently in terms of their schedule now (they have airplanes parked due to lack of crews so they had to improve). The pay for first year FO is about a year 5 AC captain pay before tax. And you don't pay taxes on your income here of course.

If you or anyone decide to come here, know this. This place will never be or feel like home, you will miss Canada and question the decision you made to move here. specially if you have family and kids that will be raised away from home. When you are trying to make your decision you have to take money out of the equation, you have to ask yourself this "if money did not matter would I be doing this?". Of course if you absolutely need the money then it is a different story but what I am saying is that even though you can basically enjoy a much better standard of living and save more money here you will always miss home and wonder how things could have turned out if you didn't come.

You have to come with the mentality that you are not likely to ever have an airline career in Canada anymore. You will not be able to go back to 50K a year or even 100K a year when you are making 150K tax free as an FO. But again money is not everything, some come here and fly for a few years till the money bucket fills up then move home and fly charter/corporate and enjoy a semi-retirement lifestyle. Others go to China/Asia and do a commuting contract and live between the two places.

It is not for everyone but if you can make it work for yourself then the financial benefits are pretty good.

Cheers
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Re: Emirates

#3 Post by Eric Janson » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:53 am

I posted this in a previous thread.
I commute to/from Dubai regularly.

Don't like anything about the place - but that's my personal opinion.

Everything is artificial - including the people. The primitive/tribal local mentality has to be experienced to be believed.

Walkaround at 47c is not something I would wish on anybody.

Most of the people I know in Dubai are looking to get out.
@iamnomaverick

Let me guess - first time outside N America?

Initial enthusiasm lasts for the first 18-24 months then reality sets in. Seen it over and over again. One friend resigned in January with no job to go to and another is out in September. One of my former F/O just passed 2 years in Dubai - I see his attitude changing every time we meet.
Dubai is the closest you will get to a modern western lifestyle outside of North America and Europe.
You might want to visit Singapore, Australia and New Zealand to change your opinion. Be sure to visit Oman as well.

You still haven't gotten the full Dubai experience yet - it's coming!

Ramadan starts in a few weeks and you can start looking forward to 39c as the daily low temperature. And some nice 2 day long sandstorms.

The place didn't flood this year - maybe next year. They still haven't built any drainage.

If you're living in a hi rise building be aware that the cladding is flammable - plenty of videos online. 2 fires already at a building in the Marina called 'The Torch' - love the irony! This cladding is no longer allowed but there is no requirement to replace cladding on anything built previously - that's most of the buildings. They are fire traps.

There's a very nasty war going on in Yemen and the UAE is involved. When it started the papers and TV channels were full of articles about the military. Now you'll read almost nothing - that tells you how that is going. There is going to be blowback as a result of this - they've already stopped a number of attacks. Surprised no Scuds have been launched at Dubai yet.

Don't be so quick to dismiss what is written on PPRuNe - plenty of people have done that only to discover that what was posted was accurate and that they wished they had listened. The issues are real and at some point they will effect you.

Suggest you also read the PPRuNe thread about the FlyDubai crash and how that was handled. The Captain was doing his last flight - he'd resigned over fatigue issues.

RT did a very good series of articles as well. Search for 'FlyDubaigate'. The final report on this crash will make for interesting reading.

Be sure to read the threads about the FOREX trading scams that have sucked in a lot of Airline employees.



I've been coming to Dubai since 1999 and I've never been able to picture myself living there.

One of the reasons I took my present job is to avoid having to work in Middle East. Most of my colleagues tell me the same thing.
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Re: Emirates

#4 Post by iamnomaverick » Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:50 am

No Eric, I have been outside of North America before but I was comparing Dubai to other Middle Eastern cities. I would much rather live here than in Riyadh,Doha or Kuwait for example... I am not overly enthused but I had to play the cards I was dealt, I would have preferred to stay at home but that's for another thread all together.

I have only been here 3 months now and I can tell you that a lot of what I read on pprune is rubbish, not saying it is all fine and dandy either but things are not so bad... My roster is out for May and I have 12 days off, 2 SBY at home (6 hours each), 1 rest day and 15 flying days including 4 red eyes. Not too bad considering what I read on pprune. I have a beach front condo, a luxury car and can afford a very decent lifestyle while still saving more than 3 times what I was saving at home on a regional airline captain salary. So you can say after years of flying in the north and a few years in the airlines I am grateful for what I got.

This is not paradise and far from it but it is quite decent for as an expat gig. You can live a normal life and have your family join you instead of commuting knowing that they are safe, enjoy your life in Dubai, see the world (I was in Europe yesterday and I go to Asia tomorrow), fly with people from all over the globe, save some decent money then when the time is right move home and enjoy a semi-retirement gig. For someone to come and succeed here they have to have and end game or a target in mind. Whether that is a financial figure, a quick upgrade or just a timeline.
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Re: Emirates

#5 Post by Eric Janson » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:51 pm

I would add Jeddah to your list. Doha would be at the top of my list.

Hope it all works out for you - just be aware things can change at a moments notice and there is nothing you can do about it.

The place will grind you down - seen it happen to all my friends.

My advice would be to have an exit strategy ready and whatever you do don't buy property in Dubai.
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Re: Emirates

#6 Post by mixturerich » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:33 am

So it seems like the first few years are pretty awesome then the majority of people want to leave. For some the lifestyle and money outweighs all the negatives. Seems like the smart thing to do is just avoid the place, rather than want to leave eventually and start at the bottom of the seniority list back in Canada.
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Re: Emirates

#7 Post by dumbbell daddy » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:22 am

I think you should hold out and wait for a response from complexintentions. He's Canadian. He went to Emirates or Ethiad as an FO, upgraded and spent a number of years there before leaving. Nothing against the other posters here, but he'll definitely give you the non bias pro's/con's.

I'd suggest you go check out the place and see for yourself......

Good luck.
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Re: Emirates

#8 Post by Speedalive » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:24 pm

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but it seems to be a similar situation at Cathay in Hong Kong. On PPRUNe, they make it sound like it's the worst place to be in the entire world, but on the other hand, a couple of my friends know people who work there who are happy and enjoying the lifestyle. Is it simply a case of "it's what you make of it" or is it actually really a bad situation there?
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Re: Emirates

#9 Post by confusedalot » Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:33 pm

From a 59 year old and out of the business, so things are a bit dated.....

First off, never actually worked for a middle eastern carrier, but I have been in the middle east mostly through multiday layovers and two week stints on subcontracts, and sim training because that is what the company used as a sim provider.

Now for Emirates. If you want to be anyplace in the middle east, it is Dubai. You will have a "sort of" western lifestyle and you will feel generally OK, but of course it will never be home. Not a bad place, but never home. So I think that the Emirates critics are a bunch of spoiled brats that have previously led cushy lives and were faced with something different than manicured british lawns and estate houses. If you had any sort of real life, Dubai is not so bad but I say again, it will never be home. Have an acquaintance there, seems to be doing quite well.

Jeddah. Been there on full crew wet lease contracts. Buildings are OK, roads are OK, the little shopping area commonly called the souk, is OK, but that is just about it. You have a VERY limited life as an expat, I would not recommend it. You have to put up with conservative muslim law, so no beer, plus alot of other restrictions. Expats tend to leave at the first chance they get. So It is not possible to recommend for a Eurpoean or a North American.

Doha...........oh boy, they want to be sooo.......much like Dubai. They try too hard and they are not succeeding. My friend tells me that air pollution is a big problem. Did some sim over there decades ago, strikes me as a place with no life and no soul, just a bunch of buildings. Even if the infrastructure is OK, it gives you the feeling of some place that was purpose built but nobody actually gave the place a life.

Certainly no middle east expert, but it is my 2 cents worth.
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Re: Emirates

#10 Post by iamnomaverick » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:27 pm

Eric Janson wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:51 pm
I would add Jeddah to your list. Doha would be at the top of my list.

Hope it all works out for you - just be aware things can change at a moments notice and there is nothing you can do about it.

The place will grind you down - seen it happen to all my friends.

My advice would be to have an exit strategy ready and whatever you do don't buy property in Dubai.
Yes I agree with you regarding things changing at a moments notice and to have an exit strategy. The rules so far is to live each day as if I will live here forever but to plan and save as if I will be "thrown out" tomorrow. I am too fresh to say how this will work out, give me a couple of years and we will see how things will be then. :wink:
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Re: Emirates

#11 Post by iamnomaverick » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:40 pm

mixturerich wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:33 am
So it seems like the first few years are pretty awesome then the majority of people want to leave. For some the lifestyle and money outweighs all the negatives. Seems like the smart thing to do is just avoid the place, rather than want to leave eventually and start at the bottom of the seniority list back in Canada.
That is what you would think if you base your opinion on what you read on online forums. I have met MANY Canadians and Americans who have been here for years and they all seem to be enjoying the place. Fact of the matter is, being a pilot (Think of the golden days of this profession not a regional FO salary) here can afford you a much better lifestyle and standard of living than back in Canada. Many come here with the notion that they will work a few years and go back, some do, many don't and these people don't come on avcanada and pprune to talk about it.
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Re: Emirates

#12 Post by iamnomaverick » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:41 pm

dumbbell daddy wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:22 am
I think you should hold out and wait for a response from complexintentions. He's Canadian. He went to Emirates or Ethiad as an FO, upgraded and spent a number of years there before leaving. Nothing against the other posters here, but he'll definitely give you the non bias pro's/con's.

I'd suggest you go check out the place and see for yourself......

Good luck.
I will look forward to hearing his opinion.
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Re: Emirates

#13 Post by mixturerich » Tue May 01, 2018 2:38 am

iamnomaverick wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:40 pm
mixturerich wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:33 am
So it seems like the first few years are pretty awesome then the majority of people want to leave. For some the lifestyle and money outweighs all the negatives. Seems like the smart thing to do is just avoid the place, rather than want to leave eventually and start at the bottom of the seniority list back in Canada.
Many come here with the notion that they will work a few years and go back, some do, many don't and these people don't come on avcanada and pprune to talk about it.
I’m just trying to get in touch with more of these positive people. It makes sense that the happy ones don’t post online, but it’d be nice to hear more people try and sell the place to balance out all the miserable people.
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Re: Emirates

#14 Post by Boreas » Tue May 01, 2018 10:32 am

Just heard that Emirates might be parking 45 tails due to a shortage of pilots...

Anyone on the inside know about this? Are they having trouble retaining guys?
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Re: Emirates

#15 Post by intake » Tue May 01, 2018 11:19 am

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Re: Emirates

#16 Post by Blueontop » Tue May 01, 2018 1:33 pm

If they having so much trouble retaining pilots and having to park airplanes maybe they should toss this garbage about min 2000 hours on greater than 20 tonnes nonsense. :roll: Flying a modern corporate light jet in this day is all intents and purposes no different than something bigger and can be argued more difficult in some aspects.. I have looked at these places and can’t get past their narrow vision of the “ideal” pilot.
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Re: Emirates

#17 Post by Boreas » Tue May 01, 2018 1:51 pm

intake wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 11:19 am
Here ya go

https://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com ... ew-months/
Some interesting comments there. Maybe it really is just a front. There certainly are advantages to blaming it on the pilots / lack thereof.
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Re: Emirates

#18 Post by RB211 » Tue May 01, 2018 10:47 pm

Every place has its pros and cons. Those things can vary with each individual. Emirates/Dubai is no different.

Do your homework to gather as much info as you can from as many sources as you can. Many non aviation sites and forums could provide additional insight to life here. As far as Emirates is concerned, forums (PPRune etc) are a start but you need to read them critically. Clearly the best option is to speak with someone you know.

If, after that, you're still interested then apply, accept the interview if offered and see for yourself. Try to stay a few days and bring your spouse if married. Get a first hand feel for things.

If it feels like the right decision for you, then pack your stuff and jump in. Commit yourself to some reasonable timeline to determine if you want to stay. Of course, it may transpire that you discover it isn't the place for you but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
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Re: Emirates

#19 Post by iamnomaverick » Tue May 01, 2018 10:57 pm

confusedalot wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:33 pm
From a 59 year old and out of the business, so things are a bit dated.....

First off, never actually worked for a middle eastern carrier, but I have been in the middle east mostly through multiday layovers and two week stints on subcontracts, and sim training because that is what the company used as a sim provider.

Now for Emirates. If you want to be anyplace in the middle east, it is Dubai. You will have a "sort of" western lifestyle and you will feel generally OK, but of course it will never be home. Not a bad place, but never home. So I think that the Emirates critics are a bunch of spoiled brats that have previously led cushy lives and were faced with something different than manicured british lawns and estate houses. If you had any sort of real life, Dubai is not so bad but I say again, it will never be home. Have an acquaintance there, seems to be doing quite well.

Jeddah. Been there on full crew wet lease contracts. Buildings are OK, roads are OK, the little shopping area commonly called the souk, is OK, but that is just about it. You have a VERY limited life as an expat, I would not recommend it. You have to put up with conservative muslim law, so no beer, plus alot of other restrictions. Expats tend to leave at the first chance they get. So It is not possible to recommend for a Eurpoean or a North American.

Doha...........oh boy, they want to be sooo.......much like Dubai. They try too hard and they are not succeeding. My friend tells me that air pollution is a big problem. Did some sim over there decades ago, strikes me as a place with no life and no soul, just a bunch of buildings. Even if the infrastructure is OK, it gives you the feeling of some place that was purpose built but nobody actually gave the place a life.

Certainly no middle east expert, but it is my 2 cents worth.
Confusedalot, spot on. Not a bad place, but never home. That goes for any place you go so if you are going to be an expat anyways you may as well live a good life while making some money. In my opinion one of the big advantages here in the UAE is that most people are expats, specially when it comes to aviation. Which in turns mean you never feel like you are a minority like you do at many other airlines (Turkish, KA, China AL etc..).
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Re: Emirates

#20 Post by Eric Janson » Wed May 02, 2018 10:18 am

iamnomaverick wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 10:57 pm
In my opinion one of the big advantages here in the UAE is that most people are expats, specially when it comes to aviation. Which in turns mean you never feel like you are a minority like you do at many other airlines (Turkish, KA, China AL etc..).
One of the best parts of being Expat is the chance to really experience other cultures. Not spend all your time with other Expats.

Never had an issue working as a minority - people are people. We have a lot in common. Had some amazing experiences due to "local knowledge".

It's all about how you present yourself.

I used to regularly do flights where I was the only 'white' person on the aircraft.

Never felt threatened and I was never concerned about my safety.
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Re: Emirates

#21 Post by complexintentions » Thu May 03, 2018 1:12 am

One of the best parts of being Expat is the chance to really experience other cultures. Not spend all your time with other Expats.
Oh yeah, you're just like a local all right, making 1000X the salary of the average worker in (for example, your previous gig) SE Asia. Just a regular joe. You're really experiencing that culture, sure, sure. Just at a higher pay grade, amiright? (fist bump)

Sorry, but being proficient with chopsticks does NOT mean you're really "embracing the culture". Marry a local, learn the language, raise your family there, support her whole village, and spend the rest of your life in your adopted country - THAT's really experiencing "other cultures". Not buying a scooter and knowing where the best biryani is to be found.

So spare us the 'Seven Years in Tibet' schtick, please. You're still a mercenary wearing local clothes no matter how you phrase it. Nothing wrong with that, but the sanctimonious "I'm so authentic" expats are just as annoying as the black Range Rover wannabe rockstars.

As far as "experiencing" other cultures, you will most certainly meet people from the largest number of different ones in Dubai than pretty much anywhere else on the planet. I'm presently working where my name is almost always the only westerner on the customs declaration. On an EK flight, you'd regularly have 20 crewmembers with 20 different passports. Guess which layover is more enjoyable? If you get your jollies being the token white guy that's fine, but if variety is the spice of life, a monoculture expat job is pretty bland by comparison. (And, while we're still with food metaphors, Dear God, EK is a smorgasbord... :twisted: )

As to Dubai and Emirates, I've pretty much given up even attempting to describe it. Spent just under a decade there, the last 6 1/2 in the left seat of the B777. But I'm constantly told "how it is" by people whose experience is limited to:

- their trips there
- their "friends who all say the same thing"
- what they see on tv.

So really, what's the point? Everyone's an expert in their own little Facebook echo chamber. I just shrug and laugh. :mrgreen:
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Re: Emirates

#22 Post by Old fella » Thu May 03, 2018 6:41 am

complexintentions wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 1:12 am
One of the best parts of being Expat is the chance to really experience other cultures. Not spend all your time with other Expats.
Oh yeah, you're just like a local all right, making 1000X the salary of the average worker in (for example, your previous gig) SE Asia. Just a regular joe. You're really experiencing that culture, sure, sure. Just at a higher pay grade, amiright? (fist bump)

Sorry, but being proficient with chopsticks does NOT mean you're really "embracing the culture". Marry a local, learn the language, raise your family there, support her whole village, and spend the rest of your life in your adopted country - THAT's really experiencing "other cultures". Not buying a scooter and knowing where the best biryani is to be found.

So spare us the 'Seven Years in Tibet' schtick, please. You're still a mercenary wearing local clothes no matter how you phrase it. Nothing wrong with that, but the sanctimonious "I'm so authentic" expats are just as annoying as the black Range Rover wannabe rockstars.

As far as "experiencing" other cultures, you will most certainly meet people from the largest number of different ones in Dubai than pretty much anywhere else on the planet. I'm presently working where my name is almost always the only westerner on the customs declaration. On an EK flight, you'd regularly have 20 crewmembers with 20 different passports. Guess which layover is more enjoyable? If you get your jollies being the token white guy that's fine, but if variety is the spice of life, a monoculture expat job is pretty bland by comparison. (And, while we're still with food metaphors, Dear God, EK is a smorgasbord... :twisted: )

As to Dubai and Emirates, I've pretty much given up even attempting to describe it. Spent just under a decade there, the last 6 1/2 in the left seat of the B777. But I'm constantly told "how it is" by people whose experience is limited to:

- their trips there
- their "friends who all say the same thing"
- what they see on tv.

So really, what's the point? Everyone's an expert in their own little Facebook echo chamber. I just shrug and laugh. :mrgreen:
In your lengthy dissertation, you didn’t mention you are earning your living like the rest of us have/did. You are just doing it in a manner that best suites your ultimate goal(s) in life and needless to say, you are making a very good living. Nothing wrong with that as it requires sacrifice and hard work on your part , commendable for sure. In the end though, the race is long and it is only with yourself.
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Re: Emirates

#23 Post by mixturerich » Thu May 03, 2018 3:05 pm

Anyone think we’re gonna see any improvements in pay or work conditions at EK given the increasing experienced pilot shortage?
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Re: Emirates

#24 Post by Mig29 » Thu May 03, 2018 6:05 pm

Don't forget at EK there is currently a 5 year/45000USD bond if you decide to go.

Not sure what it is a the Etihad but I'm sure it's not that high....
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Re: Emirates

#25 Post by Boreas » Thu May 03, 2018 6:35 pm

Mig29 wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 6:05 pm
Don't forget at EK there is currently a 5 year/45000USD bond if you decide to go.

Not sure what it is a the Etihad but I'm sure it's not that high....
And honestly, who can say what the situation is going to be like in the Middle East 5 years from now? Even 2 years...
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