Norwegian Air

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Legacy
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by Legacy »

dumbbell daddy wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:58 am
To Jack and Complex,

Do you think they will ever open up a Canadian base like they have in the US, and hire on the 737/787?

Might be wishful thinking but stranger things have happened........
It’s your wishful thinking to work for sub par wages?
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by complexintentions »

Legacy wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:26 pm
It’s your wishful thinking to work for sub par wages?
Asks a Canadian pilot? Ironic much? :mrgreen:

DD,

No idea about Norwegian's plans in Canada other than they want to operate flights here. A lot of them. The long-range narrowbodies will change the economics of the transatlantic market (already are) and that won't sit well with legacies who make most of their profit on those routes.

But as to bases I don't know.
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by Arnie Pye »

Legacy wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:26 pm
It’s your wishful thinking to work for sub par wages?
I did a quick google search and see that an FO starts at 5000 Euro base salary for the wide body and 4000 for the 737. That converts to $7500/6000 CAD per month or $90,000/72,000 per year.

After 5 years at Encore what does a year one FO make at WestJet again?? Air Canada?? We aren't really in a position to be calling norwegian's kettle black.
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by complexintentions »

There are also options for EU citizens to reduce their tax burden depending on the willingness to commute. That puts a lot more of those "sub-par" wages in the pocket than in Canada. Combine that with the ability to live in a cheaper city in another country - not really possible in Canada unless you plan to somehow commute from Detroit. :roll:

It's not a simple comparison but yeah that's why I had to laugh at loud at a Canadian pilot getting self-righteous about wages anywhere else! :mrgreen:
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by FL320 »

Arnie Pye wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:18 pm
Legacy wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:26 pm
It’s your wishful thinking to work for sub par wages?
I did a quick google search and see that an FO starts at 5000 Euro base salary for the wide body and 4000 for the 737. That converts to $7500/6000 CAD per month or $90,000/72,000 per year.

After 5 years at Encore what does a year one FO make at WestJet again?? Air Canada?? We aren't really in a position to be calling norwegian's kettle black.
Although I agree first years FO and Capt pay is sub par here in Canada - an insult to our profession - don't be impressed by the foreign currency. If you convert CAD to EURO, you should also convert the cost of living. Living with 5000 euros/month is more or less the same as 5000 CAD here. Taxes are equivalent, I am dual citizen and have been living 20 years in Europe, trust me it's not greener except if you decide to live in eastern Europe (but not for me..).
What is better in Europe from my point of vue is that they get a better return from the taxes than what we get in Canada: better roads, better healthcare system, better infrastructures, free university in some countries, etc..

Don't forget that in Europe 95% of the time pilots have to pay for the type rating to get their jet job (5% are the lucky winners Cadets hired by the majors). Ok some of them get the chance to start straight after training at Norwegian on a shiny jet at 5000E but they mostly have a total debt of 120 000 euros (I know few guys in this situation). Those who joined Norwegian already type rated on the jet most probably had to fly at another LCC on the same shitty conditions as at JAZZ or Encore
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Legacy
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by Legacy »

Arnie Pye wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:18 pm
Legacy wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:26 pm
It’s your wishful thinking to work for sub par wages?
I did a quick google search and see that an FO starts at 5000 Euro base salary for the wide body and 4000 for the 737. That converts to $7500/6000 CAD per month or $90,000/72,000 per year.

After 5 years at Encore what does a year one FO make at WestJet again?? Air Canada?? We aren't really in a position to be calling norwegian's kettle black.
And I believe you are looking at TOP scale. Not starting
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by Arnie Pye »

I just did a quick google search. http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Norwegian came back with some numbers that say they were updated as of March, 2018. Obviously the person that updated the data was a Captain because it clearly shows an increase in pay from a Base to a higher salary. If you have more accurate numbers, please do post but I believe that I have posted base numbers and not top numbers.

Now as for comparing cost of living, let's take the base that is common to both the 737 and the 787 - Barcelona. Meets your requirement of being a western european city.

Another quick google search turned up the following information:

Consumer Prices in Barcelona are 17.24% lower than in Toronto
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Barcelona are 21.50% lower than in Toronto
Rent Prices in Barcelona are 29.24% lower than in Toronto
Restaurant Prices in Barcelona are 15.54% lower than in Toronto
Groceries Prices in Barcelona are 31.29% lower than in Toronto

Domestic Beer (0.5 liter draught) 36.53% lower than in Toronto
Imported Beer (0.33 liter bottle) 44.46% lower than in Toronto
Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 28.06% lower than in Toronto
Apartment (3 bedroom) in City Centre 31.5% lower than in Toronto
Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment in City Centre 28.44% lower than in Toronto
If you don't want to live in the city centre, costs outside of the city centre are still 30-40% lower than in Toronto

Sure, Barcelona isn't for everyone, what with the terrible Spanish food and all the lack of deicing equipment at the airport and all.

Norwegian isn't the only company to ask you to pay for your type rating. I believe Scoot in Singapore also does this. I am a little surprised that companies are still getting away with this in today's market. I am pretty sure if you shopped around you could find a 787 type rating for a lot less than $120k. I had a hard time finding a firm price but it looks like the range would be around $20-30,000 USD. A colleague of mine works for Boeing flight training in BBN and he thought that sounded about right excluding hotel and food etc.
$120k sounds like you're in debt from a 1. College/University program, 2. Flight Training to the CPL level and 3. a Type Rating. If you're going to stack all of those prices together, to be fair you had better start asking how many Encore pilots are also starting day one with debt on their student loans.
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complexintentions
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by complexintentions »

Norwegian do not charge EUR 120,000 for a type rating. If you're rated on B777/787 there's no bond. Nothing. If rated on B737, B747-400/-8 or B757/B767, the bond is EUR 30,000. For any other rating, the bond is EUR 40,000. Duration 3 years, declining on a prorated monthly basis. Pretty standard stuff. Canadian pilots pay for the ratings by accepting shit wages in the early years. This is better, how?

It's hard to quantify living in BCN over pretty much any Canadian city, in terms of lifestyle. But you neglected to mention the real kicker - Spanish personal tax rates versus Canadian. An extremely important factor in comparing NET income which really, is all that matters. So you're putting more in your pocket, and taking less out to live. There's far more to it than just the raw figures. You actually have to sit down and figure out your personal situation.

I get it that not everyone wants to leave the Canadian paradise to live in some hellhole like, um, Spain where the food, wine, women, and weather are so, um, inferior to Canada. :mrgreen: But it's a bit painful to witness open hostility when it's apparently based on nothing more than ignorance of the facts.

And perhaps fear, of the competition coming.

No one's forcing anyone to join. You may, however, one day be forced to compete. And that's the REAL reason for the sniping. Otherwise why would anyone care? Touching concern for their aviating brethren?

Yeah, right. :mrgreen:
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by FL320 »

:lol:
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dumbbell daddy
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by dumbbell daddy »

complexintentions wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:48 am

I get it that not everyone wants to leave the Canadian paradise to live in some hellhole like, um, Spain where the food, wine, women, and weather are so, um, inferior to Canada. :mrgreen: But it's a bit painful to witness open hostility when it's apparently based on nothing more than ignorance of the facts.

And perhaps fear, of the competition coming.
If you really want to be disturbed read the 737/320 pay thread. It’s shocking to see a large amount of guys defend the low pay in Canada on the grounds that “it’s the price you pay to live in Canada.” Delusional!
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by broompusher »

Facts..(not to be confused with, "I heard from my buddy", or , "That's what the union told us", or "I read somewhere"). So, please, feel free to draw your conclusions based on accurate information (good or bad..that's entirely up to you)

Below is info on B787 pay scales ONLY. I do not know about the B737 stuff so I will not comment on it. The numbers here are for the CDG (Paris) base. There are minor variances from base to base because each country in Europe has slightly different different labour laws, the contracts in each base do have variations according to the law of the country that you're based in.

For clarity, the pay scales in blue are yrs 1-3, and the the ones in white are yrs 4-6. I know it says 1-3, however that is meant as yrs1-3 on the formula pay. Sorry, not everyone speaks Canadianese.

1. There is no longer an upfront bond required (I have never agreed with upfront bonds, so good riddance to them). Just a Sign a contract that states you agree
to Stay 3 years.
2. Pay scale Years 1-3 are fixed pay (up to 75hrs in France <In accordance with French Law>). Anything above 75hrs is at a rate of an additional 20% pay/hr.
(attached below).
3. Pay scale years 4-6 are more of a "formula pay" set up. Min guarantee is more than yrs 1-3, yet based on 10 hours less (65hrs V. 75hrs) and the hourly block pay
above 65hrs is more.
4. overtime (AKA BDO..Bought Days Off). They are 10% of your monthly guarantee per day. IF you choose to sell a day off and your min guarantee is, for example,
5000 Euros, your would be paid 500 Euros for each day that you sold, plus additional flight pay if you where to exceed 75hrs in the first 3 yrs of employment, or
65hrs for 4th yr onward.

*All numbers shown are in Euros
**RCA..Relief Captain (Essentially a Left Seat Qualified Senior FO)


I am not trying to get into A D**K swinging contest, I am only trying to put accurate information out there for all of you. If you think this is crap pay and your gig is better and/or pays more, I am sincerely happy for you. Enjoy your job. If you conclude that this is appalling pay and/or conditions and that anyone working there is furthering the Race to the bottom, that is of course your opinion. I would disagree with you on that, but that would be MY opinion.





Is this place perfect? Of course not.
Are they trying to make this a better place to work? Yes.
Do I enjoy working here? You bet!
Would you (if you have the legal right to work in UK/EU)? Only you can answer that.
Will Norwegian ever open a base in Canada? That's anybody's guess.
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Attachments
Bond.jpeg
Bond.jpeg (599.63 KiB) Viewed 3880 times
yrs1-3.png
yrs1-3.png (291.68 KiB) Viewed 3880 times
yrs4-6.png
yrs4-6.png (441.61 KiB) Viewed 3880 times
WTF, over

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Re: Norwegian Ai

Post by FL320 »

What is the top paysacale for FO and PIC?
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by RVR6000 »

dumbbell daddy wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:56 am
complexintentions wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:48 am

I get it that not everyone wants to leave the Canadian paradise to live in some hellhole like, um, Spain where the food, wine, women, and weather are so, um, inferior to Canada. :mrgreen: But it's a bit painful to witness open hostility when it's apparently based on nothing more than ignorance of the facts.

And perhaps fear, of the competition coming.
If you really want to be disturbed read the 737/320 pay thread. It’s shocking to see a large amount of guys defend the low pay in Canada on the grounds that “it’s the price you pay to live in Canada.” Delusional!

The 320 pay at Air Canada is about the same as a wide-body Norwegian pay posted above. Not sure what’s some of you guys are trying to prove, the Norwegian scale works out to $220k for a 80 hr month after currency conversion.
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by complexintentions »

Yeah, but to get Air Canada A320 pay you have to live in Canada and fly an...A320.

Both dealbreakers for me! :mrgreen:
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by Joe Blow Schmo »

Arnie Pye wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:18 pm
Legacy wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:26 pm
It’s your wishful thinking to work for sub par wages?
I did a quick google search and see that an FO starts at 5000 Euro base salary for the wide body and 4000 for the 737. That converts to $7500/6000 CAD per month or $90,000/72,000 per year.

After 5 years at Encore what does a year one FO make at WestJet again?? Air Canada?? We aren't really in a position to be calling norwegian's kettle black.
Luckily for Norwegian, if they opened a Canadian base they could save a bunch of money by offering "Canadian" salary levels :smt040
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by sanjet »

complexintentions wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:48 am
Thank you for your thorough, insightful analysis. :lol:
Jack Klumpus wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:55 pm

Who ever says they’ll be out of cash soon is misinformed.


I was off by a few months.

Sad for the employees involved, doesn't look good.
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by Jack Klumpus »

dumbbell daddy wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:58 am
To Jack and Complex,

Do you think they will ever open up a Canadian base like they have in the US, and hire on the 737/787?

Might be wishful thinking but stranger things have happened........
Apologies for the late reply. I don’t check in often.

Given their current situation, I highly doubt they will enter the Canadian market with bases. Their current plan is to offer long haul LCC from Europe to Canada, and they can do that within their current scope If operations. There is no advantage to reverse that and base their pilots (and crew?) in Canada.
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by Jack Klumpus »

sanjet wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:43 pm
complexintentions wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:48 am
Thank you for your thorough, insightful analysis. :lol:
Jack Klumpus wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:55 pm

Who ever says they’ll be out of cash soon is misinformed.
A lot of things can happen in a few months in aviation. They made it past the summer, and they’re going through. They’ve re-assesses their model and hopefully can continue their business. I would hate for an airline of this size to go bust.

I was off by a few months.

Sad for the employees involved, doesn't look good.
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by pianokeys »

Redwine wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:20 pm
This shit airline caters to the millennium travelers who have no clue what air travel used to be like.
The shit airline that is also ALPA banned, #denyNAI . They contribute to the dilution of pilots and the industry as a whole. Good riddance.
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by complexintentions »

Riddance? Perhaps you're getting confused with Flybmi? :mrgreen:
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by florch »

pianokeys wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:36 am
Redwine wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:20 pm
This shit airline caters to the millennium travelers who have no clue what air travel used to be like.
The shit airline that is also ALPA banned, #denyNAI . They contribute to the dilution of pilots and the industry as a whole. Good riddance.
How does supply and demand work in your world?

In general the more pilots needed in Canada, the higher the wages, no? That is, provided employers are competing, not like the Air Canada regional whipsaw game. So if transcon flying wants to base here that gives Canadian pilots more options and makes employers step up to what the market demands - an equation airlines apparently understand, but pilots as a group do not.

What am I missing?
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by pianokeys »

florch wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:19 am
What am I missing?
Understanding on how the industry works.

The simple fact is there is not a pilot shortage. And even if there was one, that doesnt mean wages will increase. That basic, folklore-like thinking about economics isnt so. Just because there isnt people to do a job doesnt mean that wages will or have to go up to entice prospective employees.

I personally believe the workforce is not compensated based off demand as much as its based off skill, risk and liability, and education for that skill. Why do you think Tims pays dick? And why do you think Doctors are paid handsomely? The truth is, even our pilot brothers in the states that are making peanuts flying for regional carriers are still accepting jobs and still earning dick, wages have seldom increased for regional pilots. There is no incentive for airlines to pay their pilots well because there is a line up of Instagram-wannabes who will do the job just for the ability to say their a pilot.

You need to read on NAI and their horrible practices. Lets put it this way, its very similar to how cruise ship companies register their boats in a country with lax labour laws. An international carrier who has a training bond on WB aircraft? LOL.
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by Diadem »

Even the CEO has so little faith in the company that he sold his shares at a discount: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inve ... -p3kwmjs5p
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by florch »

pianokeys wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:28 pm
florch wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:19 am
What am I missing?
Understanding on how the industry works.

The simple fact is there is not a pilot shortage. And even if there was one, that doesnt mean wages will increase. That basic, folklore-like thinking about economics isnt so. Just because there isnt people to do a job doesnt mean that wages will or have to go up to entice prospective employees.

I personally believe the workforce is not compensated based off demand as much as its based off skill, risk and liability, and education for that skill. Why do you think Tims pays dick? And why do you think Doctors are paid handsomely? The truth is, even our pilot brothers in the states that are making peanuts flying for regional carriers are still accepting jobs and still earning dick, wages have seldom increased for regional pilots. There is no incentive for airlines to pay their pilots well because there is a line up of Instagram-wannabes who will do the job just for the ability to say their a pilot.

You need to read on NAI and their horrible practices. Lets put it this way, its very similar to how cruise ship companies register their boats in a country with lax labour laws. An international carrier who has a training bond on WB aircraft? LOL.
Having skill and being able to take responsibility make you less common - less SUPPLY.

Some companies IE regionals have to compete with each other for work from the majors, and pilot groups sell themselves short to compete for it. Pitting regionals against each other is a manipulation of the SUPPLY/DEMAND curve. This is one of the only reasons that supply demand isn't perfectly represented. Another is if unions can manipulate the supply, or individuals get satisfied or comfortable and don't demand what they could.

The Majors in the US OTOH pay much better than they do in Canada, not because they WANT to, or they FEEL that an airline pilot is worth $X. They pay because they are competing for experienced pilots - there is DEMAND. There is no shortage of pilots, I agree, just a shortage of 10,000 hour pilots that will work for $50k.

Crappy airlines will still exist, I don't doubt you that NAI may be one of them. I'm not even going to look because I'm satisfied where I am and I have worked for horror shows in the past. Bottom feeders will be a training school for other airlines and a haven for people who have found their way there by circumstances. It's not my job to decide who gets to exist or have a job - do you feel you are in a position to govern such decisions? Should it be centrally planned in your estimation? If we want to live in Canada, we need to work for a company that at least has a Canadian base. If they base Canadians here, the pilots have to come from somewhere, (increased DEMAND) and the airlines will compete for guys with WAWCON. Provided those jobs are filled by Canadians and not imported pilots (increasing SUPPLY) that WILL put upward pressure on Canadian salaries.
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by pianokeys »

florch wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:35 am
that WILL put downward pressure on Canadian salaries.
Fixed it for you.

If an operators main game is to provide low cost flying, where do you think the money for that will come from? WAWCON thats where. And if you as the low cost operator price yourselves below your competitor, the competitor will need to take measures to save themselves or be out of business. And, as history demonstrates, the first place to save is on wages. So yeah there could be a DEMAND for more pilots, but not at favorable wages. Especially if the angle is lowest possible fare.

Prime example, look at any low cost carriers pay compared to a legacy carrier on the same type in the US. They pay less than the big boys. Or, as you gave me in your counter argument, regional airlines. We can do it cheaper just dilutes the competitors, its predatory.

SUPPLY and DEMAND curves are microeconomics, simplest form. But in a macroeconomical picture, the SUPPLY and DEMAND curve is a lot different then what you would like to believe and argued. DEMAND for jobs does not mean wages will increase.
florch wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:35 am
They pay because they are competing for experienced pilots - there is DEMAND.
I also dont think the majors in the US pay because they "want" experienced pilots, its because the pilots negotiated for those wages.
florch wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:35 am
It's not my job to decide who gets to exist or have a job - do you feel you are in a position to govern such decisions? Should it be centrally planned in your estimation?
Not sure what this has to do with anything, and not sure what I estimated either. I still dont think you understand how this industry works, nor do I understand why youve glossed over such blatant facts that have historically repeated themselves hundreds of times in this industry.
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