CargoJet or Transat?

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160tonoaha
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CargoJet or Transat?

Post by 160tonoaha » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:01 am

What would you do if you had offers from both?

Here's my pro and con list:


- Transat Own's its own flying, but subject to competition from rouge, swg, westjet. CargoJet has no competitor but also relies on contracts. Purolator contract expires 2025 with renewal option.
- Transat 5 years to 330 command as of today. CargoJet upgrading around 2 year mark if you meet matrix.
- Transat known to lay off during recession (is it around the corner?). CargoJet is recession proof, cargo still flies, and with deals being secured in USA through DHL, a recession in Canada would likely mean the USD/CAD buying power would bring more business to CargoJet...
- Transat has a mix of narrow body and wide body flying. CargoJet all wide body flying.
- You make approximately 50k more across 5 years in the FO seat at CargoJet than you do at Transat (no per diems or OT included).
- CargoJet has passes my id travel passes on AC, so does Transat. Transat has passes on itself. CargoJet lets you jumpseat on own aircraft for the purposes of getting to work.

First 5 years of Transat as FO: 55/69/82/89/96 versus CargoJet 70/74/89/97/106
If you upgrade after 2 years at both companies: Transat - 137/148/160/172/184. CargoJet - 133/143/155/166/179

Considering RRSP contribution maximized, plus matching, you get the following percentages.
CargoJet: 6% to 5 years. 8% to 10 Years. 10% to 15 Years. 12% after 15 years. 30 year career = 10% average of salary goes towards pension. If you upgrade after 2 years and ride out 28 years in the left seat averaging around 180k/yr that's 504k contributed.
Transat: 140% of maximum 7% contributions matched. Meaning 9.8% of salary per year goes to pension. If you upgrade after 5 years and ride out 25 remaining years at 9.8 % and averaging 200k/yr in those 25 years that 490k contributed.

The money you lost as FO between Transat and CargoJet, you make up in the left seat across 5 years. Again no OT, Per Diems, Etc.

CargoJet per diems around 10k/year. Transat around 20k/year. You layover in more expensive places too with Transat hence the net effect of per diems may be nil.

At the end of the day, night flying happens at both places. So what other reasons would you have for choosing CargoJet over Transat or vice versa? People seem happy at both places. If you can't fly night cargo, you likely aren't meant for wide body operations at all. Fatigue and jetlag is part of that sector of flying.
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by TFTMB heavy » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:07 pm

Numbers don't lie but there is more to it like working conditions and vacation. Air Transat is doing well on both. I've been at Air Transat 11.5 years and I am quite happy. Layoffs should be a thing of the past and we haven't had any in a few years, as a matter of fact there will be a big hiring push soon. Things will change a bit with the new fatigue rules and once the whole fleet is Airbus. Who knows how it will end up but I anticipate slightly more even flying year round and better schedules for jr pilots, just a guess at this point.

Here's one more thing to think about, Air Transat was not part of the coalition that opposed the new fatigue rules...
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by altiplano » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:17 pm

I figure there is a reason 767 upgrade is in 2 years only...

No contest, I'd take Transat.
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160tonoaha
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by 160tonoaha » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:02 pm

Thanks!
TFTMB heavy wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:07 pm
Numbers don't lie but there is more to it like working conditions and vacation. Air Transat is doing well on both. I've been at Air Transat 11.5 years and I am quite happy. Layoffs should be a thing of the past and we haven't had any in a few years, as a matter of fact there will be a big hiring push soon. Things will change a bit with the new fatigue rules and once the whole fleet is Airbus. Who knows how it will end up but I anticipate slightly more even flying year round and better schedules for jr pilots, just a guess at this point.

Here's one more thing to think about, Air Transat was not part of the coalition that opposed the new fatigue rules...
This is great to read. Why are layoffs a thing of the past? I would see the beginning of a bearish market, setbacks in housing prices, and overall fear amongst people's spending habits as a tell tale sign that Vacation flying could absolutely face lay offs. Ultimately, Rouge, Transat, Swg are in the market for the same customers. I mean AC restricted their 787 options on the premise of the state of the world and GDP projections. Why is transat expanding during such bearish times? Something brewing in the kitchen that one should know about? Also the CEO recently left. What's the mandate of the new CEO?

Any idea what the hiring push is looking like at Transat? 100's of people joining the ranks or 20-30?
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by TFTMB heavy » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:35 pm

Can't lay off people anymore everyone is hiring and we have much smaller shoulder seasons now. Also, new fatigue rules, retirements, more narrow bodies coming, more frequency on profitable routes...many reasons to hire. Maybe AC put a hold on more options but they still have a huge need for pilots, same as WS and SW. Can't give you a precise number but we got an email about it so that tells me it will be a good one. All signs point towards expansion and a new hotel chain, all good news.

Leisure travel is showing no signs of slowing down btw.

I'll say it again, Air Transat did not campaign against the new fatigue rules...many other companies did.
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by Boreas » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:35 pm

Transat Struggles Amid Rising Canadian Competition for Sun Destinations - some headwinds in the forecast. Its my opinion though, that Transat will have the full suport of the Quebec government is things get nasty.

The two year upgrade at CargoJet is due to their fleet expansion. I don't have the numbers but I reckon it works out to significant percentage growth. That might not last moving forward if the global economy sh!ts a brick... Then again you're not really safe on the low end of any seniority list if that happens. There definitely won't be anyone coming to CargoJet's rescue if things get nasty.

Also, don't you want to go to Air Canada? :mrgreen:
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160tonoaha
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by 160tonoaha » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:08 pm

Freight has to fly in a good or bad economy. Vacation travel doesn't. I'd think Cargo flying would be safer than vacation flying if you look through the optics of a bad economy.

One could also say that the Canadian Recession bodes well for US buying power... so expansion of UPS/DHL flying could be a continual thing for CargoJet.
Boreas wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:35 pm
There definitely won't be anyone coming to CargoJet's rescue if things get nasty.
Who came to Transat's rescue when they laid off guys not too long ago? Devils advocate, genuinely wondering...
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by Boreas » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:22 pm

160tonoaha wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:08 pm
Who came to Transat's rescue when they laid off guys not too long ago? Devils advocate, genuinely wondering...
I'm considering more of a bankruptcy scenario, as opposed to layoffs. A French-Canadian company will always have an advantage over a 'regular' company if they were to start circling the drain. Again, my opinion.
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by TFTMB heavy » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:28 pm

Boreas wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:22 pm
160tonoaha wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:08 pm
Who came to Transat's rescue when they laid off guys not too long ago? Devils advocate, genuinely wondering...
I'm considering more of a bankruptcy scenario, as opposed to layoffs. A French-Canadian company will always have an advantage over a 'regular' company if they were to start circling the drain. Again, my opinion.
Nobody came to the rescue, the company restructured and has been on a cost reduction mission for a few years. Layoffs were mostly due to seasonal flying needs. After the last round of layoffs a few didn't come back when recalled and went to SW the company realized they were going to be a training airline for SW if they continued layoffs, everyone was kept year round after that. We got all the flying Canjet was doing, now the flying is more even throughout the year and keeps increasing.

Air Transat has one major client, it's Transat. Air Transat does over 90% of the flying for Transat.
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by TSAM » Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:08 pm

Beware of contracts. KF had the Puro contract for a long time. Most pilots got laid off. CJ may not have competition now, but that can change. Also one must look at mgmt-pilot relationship. AFAIK, Transat wins in that category.
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by 29 ford » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:00 pm

I would go with the one making money.
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by palebird » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:13 pm

KFC was supposed to have the Purolator contract "forever" because Barry was some kind of guru. We all know how that worked out. You know who the president of Cargo Jet is right? He counts his nickels and dimes. When, not if, the Canadian economy goes into freefall air freight is one of the first to get cut. It won't take long.
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by 29 ford » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:42 pm

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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by FL320 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:12 pm

If you upgrade after 2 years at both companies: Transat - 137/148/160/172/184
As of 2019: 137/146/154/163/171 (airbus fleet)
If you upgrade after 3 years you go on year 2 payscale (146k if on airbus fleet)
New collective agreement in 2020
Transat: 140% of maximum 7% contributions matched. Meaning 9.8% of salary per year goes to pension. If you upgrade after 5 years and ride out 25 remaining years at 9.8 % and averaging 200k/yr in those 25 years that 490k contributed
If you put 5% (the max that can be matched) of your gross salary (extra money from OT is not matched) the company put 7%. In your example after 25 years at 200k/yr you put 250k from your salary and they offered you 350k, total in your RRSP = 600k
You layover in more expensive places too with Transat hence the net effect of per diems may be nil.
Food/restaurants in Europe are a lot cheaper than in Canada imo
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Last edited by FL320 on Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:33 am, edited 7 times in total.

160tonoaha
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by 160tonoaha » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:19 pm

Thanks guys this is a helpful thread.
palebird wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:13 pm
KFC was supposed to have the Purolator contract "forever" because Barry was some kind of guru. We all know how that worked out. You know who the president of Cargo Jet is right? He counts his nickels and dimes. When, not if, the Canadian economy goes into freefall air freight is one of the first to get cut. It won't take long.
Why will air freight be the first to go? I’d say quite the contrary. With the influx of e-commerce freight, growth of DHL and UPS contracts, a Canadian recession likely increases USD buying power and placed cargojet in an advantageous spot to continue business right? The same way they navigated through the 2008 down turn...
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by FL320 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:31 pm

They have lots of money in the bank...there is really no need to frick out with this. :wink:
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by palebird » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:45 am

When the economy gets tight ,and it is only beginning, people stop spending money period. Economics 101. Check your history books well past 2008. Cargojet is leveraged up the ying yang with all those nice old high time 767's.You actually think the weak loonie will be beneficial?? You do realise that most of the costs of the aircraft are all in USD right? A weak loonie is bad news. Keep on dreaming. I don't wish any harm to the industry, just stating the obvious.Bin dar dun dat.
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by 160tonoaha » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:53 am

Thanks palebird
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by fish4life » Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:42 pm

Freight decreases with economic slow downs, it’s why companies like fedex are considered bellwether stocks
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160tonoaha
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by 160tonoaha » Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:04 pm

More so than vacation travel?
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by skytrucker » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:27 am

Transat. Schedule wise Cargojet leaves little room to get hours on the 767. Transat is a great employer. ALPA, benefits, excellent layovers and longevity.
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by jd832 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:27 pm

I don't know about Air Transat, but SWG as a lot of ex Cargo Jet pilots. I wonder why?
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by Handover » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:34 pm

jd832 wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:27 pm
I don't know about Air Transat, but SWG as a lot of ex Cargo Jet pilots. I wonder why?
I wouldn't say a lot. I know of a few. CJT has a lot of great things going for it. Don't know cargo flying until you have tried it... No CATSA, no delays, planes are very well maintained, no flying over the weekends, some very interesting charters etc

The nights can be a killer though. For me it really had an effect on my health.

Coming to SWG a more daylight consistent schedule suits me. Saying that, I know a ton of CJT pilots who would never leave there for Sunwing or anything else.

Each to their own.
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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by confusedalot » Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:15 pm

Did the transat thing in the ancient days; politics galore and a combination of carrot and stick layoffs and promises of an eventual full time job.
So I went to Canada 3000. Full time job that goes POOF just like that.
Had this little minion stuck with the transat bs, I would be a king.
Soooo..........the bottom line is that you never know. Could be great, could be a train wreck. Transat has had many brushes with closure.
Things have changed now, millenials have a ton of money in their pockets, many of who live on inheritance, so said millenials will take lots of vacations and will also buy tons of stuff on amazon,
So, transat or cargojet are a draw. Both will make a ton of money.
Cheers


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Re: CargoJet or Transat?

Post by Victory » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:35 pm

confusedalot wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:15 pm
millenials have a ton of money in their pockets
You're crazy.
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