Image Recorders May be Coming to a Cockpit Near You

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pelmet
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Image Recorders May be Coming to a Cockpit Near You

Post by pelmet » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:02 pm

From a recent newsletter I read....

"Currently the government is consulting with rail stakeholders as it prepares to publish proposed regulations for the use of video and voice recorders in locomotives. The potential for the government to move on to introducting them on the flight deck is a real possibility. ALPa does not agree with the recording of images in the cockpit. We would suggest other solution that could potentially achieve the same results, such as screen capturing the information visable on displays and recording of electronic information generated by the selection of a switch. We will continue to monitor and engage with the government on this important issue to ensure that our collective voice is heard."
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Re: Image Recorders May be Coming to a Cockpit Near You

Post by FOD_Vacuum » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:25 am

Okay, and who is gonna pay for these cameras? First of all, most commercial cockpits today already have a CVR, 705 jets also have a black box and most modern high tech jets have engine parameters being fed via satellite to maintenance every second. Pilots are some of the most highly monitored people out there...if it’s not voice, it’s actions in the cockpit measured by on-board parameter computers. What good, besides finding out which dummy spilled the coffee over the FMS, does installing cameras in flight deck bring? That’s so “Big Brother” like. You trust us to fly your $200mil jet but you somehow need to have the ability to film us doing so-very contradicting.
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Re: Image Recorders May be Coming to a Cockpit Near You

Post by lownslow » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:24 am

FOD_Vacuum wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:25 am
You trust us to fly your $200mil jet
I would assume based on some of the accidents and publicized near-accidents of the last couple years that, no, they don't trust us anymore.
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Re: Image Recorders May be Coming to a Cockpit Near You

Post by munzil » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:43 am

FOD_Vacuum wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:25 am
You trust us to fly your $200mil jet but you somehow need to have the ability to film us doing so-very contradicting.
I think the point is they don't trust us to fly the $200m jet
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Re: Image Recorders May be Coming to a Cockpit Near You

Post by AuxBatOn » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:52 am

It's not about trust. It's about being able to reconstruct an accident or incident to a high level of confidence, find a root cause and contributing factors (where a pilot is looking, what he is looking at, where his hands are are all things that can be important) and draw some lessons learned.

Treated like a CVR/FDR, it is not an issue.
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Re: Image Recorders May be Coming to a Cockpit Near You

Post by HansDietrich » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:53 am

I would have no problem at all with video recorders, except one. I wouldn't want published videos of plane crashes. It's not something the families need to see and you know they come out eventually. They're "shocking" news...
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Re: Image Recorders May be Coming to a Cockpit Near You

Post by AuxBatOn » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:31 am

I have two cameras in my cockpit, one of which I wear on my head. The footage would never be released to anyone other than other pilots (generally for the purpose of debriefing) or accident investigators.
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Re: Image Recorders May be Coming to a Cockpit Near You

Post by bobcaygeon » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:11 pm

FOD_Vacuum wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:25 am
Okay, and who is gonna pay for these cameras? First of all, most commercial cockpits today already have a CVR, 705 jets also have a black box and most modern high tech jets have engine parameters being fed via satellite to maintenance every second. Pilots are some of the most highly monitored people out there...if it’s not voice, it’s actions in the cockpit measured by on-board parameter computers. What good, besides finding out which dummy spilled the coffee over the FMS, does installing cameras in flight deck bring? That’s so “Big Brother” like. You trust us to fly your $200mil jet but you somehow need to have the ability to film us doing so-very contradicting.
Your logic may seem tight but somehow a 777 went missing from the face of the earth and they are still missing the CVR from the Lionair crash.

I don't see the big deal if it's not being used for disciplinary purposes.

If you think your being watched try being a cop. Lots of second guessing everyday on the news. Airplanes and flying are much more predictable than interacting with a wide range of human beings that don't come with a manual.
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Re: Image Recorders May be Coming to a Cockpit Near You

Post by x-wind » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:02 pm

Glad ALPA is or will be resistung this. It's an invasion of privacy, capture the screens etc is a great idea.
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Re: Image Recorders May be Coming to a Cockpit Near You

Post by FOD_Vacuum » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:16 pm

bobcaygeon wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:11 pm
FOD_Vacuum wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:25 am
Okay, and who is gonna pay for these cameras? First of all, most commercial cockpits today already have a CVR, 705 jets also have a black box and most modern high tech jets have engine parameters being fed via satellite to maintenance every second. Pilots are some of the most highly monitored people out there...if it’s not voice, it’s actions in the cockpit measured by on-board parameter computers. What good, besides finding out which dummy spilled the coffee over the FMS, does installing cameras in flight deck bring? That’s so “Big Brother” like. You trust us to fly your $200mil jet but you somehow need to have the ability to film us doing so-very contradicting.
Your logic may seem tight but somehow a 777 went missing from the face of the earth and they are still missing the CVR from the Lionair crash.

I don't see the big deal if it's not being used for disciplinary purposes.

If you think your being watched try being a cop. Lots of second guessing everyday on the news. Airplanes and flying are much more predictable than interacting with a wide range of human beings that don't come with a manual.
I have a high degree of speculation that cameras in the cockpit will be used for disciplinary purposes and misuse of them would lead to issues. In fact, depending on who is flying, this could lead to unessesary stress like you are being watched by some check pilot judging your every move.

The Malaysian 777 was in my opinion deliberately flown into the ocean to vanish from known detection and as far off of course as possible. All transponders, gps yadiyada was turned off so that they could not be found, and the captain knew what he was doing. No camera would have been beneficial here.

As for the Lion Air crash, they found the black box last year but are still looking for the CVR. In my opinion, if the CVR is this hard to find, getting footage from some camera would be equally as difficult. Again, a camera would not help in this situation.

It is an invasion of privacy to have cameras watching you, and I vouch for the previous comment of installing screen recording devices or the like. Although I’m not one of them, some people tend to put tape on their laptop cameras because they feel they might be watched by who knows.
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Re: Image Recorders May be Coming to a Cockpit Near You

Post by AuxBatOn » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:57 pm

FDR/CVRs are not used for disciplinary purposes. What makes you believe that a CI(magery)R would?
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Re: Image Recorders May be Coming to a Cockpit Near You

Post by C-GGGQ » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:47 pm

Easier to get at the video recordings than take apart black boxes. Trucking companies have already started. However some seeing it's potential for abuse have opted for outward facing only dash cams.
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Re: Image Recorders May be Coming to a Cockpit Near You

Post by Bede » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:35 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:31 am
I have two cameras in my cockpit, one of which I wear on my head. The footage would never be released to anyone other than other pilots (generally for the purpose of debriefing) or accident investigators.
So you think.

The Regulators made a deal with the pilot unions that CVR/FDR data was privileged and can only be used for accident investigation purposes. Unfortunately, courts have been eroding that privilege and allowing the data as evidence in trials against the pilot.
https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2 ... ultIndex=2
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Re: Image Recorders May be Coming to a Cockpit Near You

Post by Donald » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:38 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:31 am
I have two cameras in my cockpit, one of which I wear on my head. The footage would never be released to anyone other than other pilots (generally for the purpose of debriefing) or accident investigators.
Doesn't take much of a YouTube search to find plenty of cockpit videos from military flights, both successful and unsuccessful flights.
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Re: Image Recorders May be Coming to a Cockpit Near You

Post by AuxBatOn » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:56 pm

You won't find too many Canadian military cockpit videos. US and Canadian rules regarding CVR/FDR are different.
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Re: Image Recorders May be Coming to a Cockpit Near You

Post by AuxBatOn » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:57 pm

Bede wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:35 pm
AuxBatOn wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:31 am
I have two cameras in my cockpit, one of which I wear on my head. The footage would never be released to anyone other than other pilots (generally for the purpose of debriefing) or accident investigators.
So you think.

The Regulators made a deal with the pilot unions that CVR/FDR data was privileged and can only be used for accident investigation purposes. Unfortunately, courts have been eroding that privilege and allowing the data as evidence in trials against the pilot.
https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2 ... ultIndex=2
After an accident happens, using the data in any legal proceeding is, imo, fair game.
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Re: Image Recorders May be Coming to a Cockpit Near You

Post by Bede » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:42 am

AuxBatOn wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:57 pm
Bede wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:35 pm
AuxBatOn wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:31 am
I have two cameras in my cockpit, one of which I wear on my head. The footage would never be released to anyone other than other pilots (generally for the purpose of debriefing) or accident investigators.
So you think.

The Regulators made a deal with the pilot unions that CVR/FDR data was privileged and can only be used for accident investigation purposes. Unfortunately, courts have been eroding that privilege and allowing the data as evidence in trials against the pilot.
https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2 ... ultIndex=2
After an accident happens, using the data in any legal proceeding is, imo, fair game.
Fair enough. The courts do agree with you. But that was exactly what pilot's didn't want happen when they agreed to giving up some privacy in exchange for flight safety.
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Re: Image Recorders May be Coming to a Cockpit Near You

Post by photofly » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:45 am

Bede wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:35 pm
The Regulators made a deal with the pilot unions that CVR/FDR data was privileged and can only be used for accident investigation purposes.
That is not accurate. That is what the pilots unions requested, but the legislation the government of Canada (the regulator) enacted says (TSB Act Subsection 28 (6)) that “the recording may be produced to a court or coroner under certain circumstances, where the court or coroner concludes that the public interest in the administration of justice outweighs the importance of the privilege.

This is entirely in line with ICAO requirements.

Subsection 28(7) provides that the on-board recording may not be “used against”, aircraft crew members, among others, in disciplinary, legal or other proceedings.

I don’t see any evidence that either provision has been watered down as you suggest.
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