Canadian Pilot Unity

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How do you view canadian pilot unity?

We are all in it together
29
33%
Screw GGN and SKY for taking my jets away in YYZ, can't wait for them to join BOTL at Jazz for being scumbags
17
19%
Screw ACPA for negotiating the exclusivity rights of one CPA away when Jazz was negotiating better terms
11
12%
I would be open to attend an all Air Canada "family" pilot open house and put this history to bed once and for all so we can work together
32
36%
 
Total votes: 89

GATRKGA
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Canadian Pilot Unity

Post by GATRKGA »

Hi guys and gals, with some of the comments made on the "GGN gonna bye bye" thread I can't help but to start a poll and a discussion on where we actually are at with regards to being unified as a pilot group?

The entire industry is watching what you guys ratify at Jazz. I completely appreciate the history, and part of an important history lesson is to not repeat its mistakes. When I see comments like "I can't wait for them to go BOTL, or BOTL is what GGN deserves, etc" I lose hope in our pilot group.

On the flipside, you youngins, you outdo the old by a large margin. Learn from the history of guys throwing each other under the buss. Don't just ratify a contract for more airplanes... don't be selfish. Ratify it if it benefits the greater good of the entire pilot group. Let the corporates compete against each other. We are all pilots and shouldn't be competing against each other. Realize that a good career is dependent on your involvement in making this industry better for yourself and your peers. You and your peers all want the same thing. Career stability, pay, schedule, predictable progression.

Older dudes, we got fucked. We also reacted by fucking each other pretty hard to boot. Can you call a spade a spade and try to rewrite this chapter? This 2035 deal is a very big deal for majority of the 22-23 year old pimple faces that are wearing Jazz/GGN/Sky and AC hats today. Likewise it is the legacy by which older guys will be remembered leaving upon this industry in their last few years. These concessions will shape the next 2 decades of the aviation career in Canada. Please don't screw this up for each other. Be mindful, learn from the past, and move on together. DOH makes perfect sense for GGN. You're no better going to Jazz or GGN. What's different between 22 year old Sam at Jazz, and 22 year old Jennifer at GGN? They are both working for Air Canada Express. Why wouldn't there be DOH? Cause of competition? You fell for the corporate divide if you think pilots are competing. They aren't competing. They are just making the best of the situation created by their predecessors, and trying to make it to AC. That's it. It's why shortly after 2015 YYZ Jet expansion, GGN and SKY pilots decided to join you Jazz boys under ALPA. They want the same thing you do, they're not out to @#$! you. Can they trust you're not out to @#$! them?

My 2 cents at least. Maybe I'll be whiplashed as painting a unicorn, but I really think we can change history if we are mindful of what we are about to vote on. The moment you think "Well only if I get this and this and this, will I vote DOH for GGN"... we're toast. DOH makes sense for GGN if they're being put out of jobs. Ideally the conditions go up for you at Jazz, and GGN gets DOH. That's a good day for our industry.

Best of luck jazz guys. The industry is watching you. You have a shot at correcting the course we've been on since the 2001 days... from here we can do great things with ACPA as well. I don't think they're opposed to it, they clearly want ALPA, but they too have a history to work out before they're able to comfortably join.

The industry needs some leadership right now.
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Last edited by GATRKGA on Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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daedalusx
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Re: Canadian Pilot Unity

Post by daedalusx »

When the Jazz bscalers FOs can feed their families, maybe then we can think about GGN.
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
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Re: Canadian Pilot Unity

Post by GATRKGA »

daedalusx wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:23 pm When the Jazz bscalers FOs can feed their families, maybe then we can think about GGN.
How about when the Jazz/GGN/Sky FO's can feed their families? We can think of a collective solution? You're still looking at this through the binoculars of "what's best for me at jazz"
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Re: Canadian Pilot Unity

Post by daedalusx »

GATRKGA wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:25 pm
daedalusx wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:23 pm When the Jazz bscalers FOs can feed their families, maybe then we can think about GGN.
How about when the Jazz/GGN/Sky FO's can feed their families? We can think of a collective solution? You're still looking at this through the binoculars of "what's best for me at jazz"
It’s really not about what’s right for me because I’m already in the left seat and would probably benefit from a GGN merger even with DOH. It’s about what’s right for all those guys who’s been sacrificing for the last 2 years. If the bscale goes and those guys can enjoy decent pay and yos upgrade as well as pml? Fine. But I’ve yet to fly with a single FO that could survive on his salary and I work out of the least expensive base.
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
ragequit
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Re: Canadian Pilot Unity

Post by ragequit »

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Last edited by ragequit on Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
GATRKGA
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Re: Canadian Pilot Unity

Post by GATRKGA »

daedalusx wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:29 pm
GATRKGA wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:25 pm
daedalusx wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:23 pm When the Jazz bscalers FOs can feed their families, maybe then we can think about GGN.
How about when the Jazz/GGN/Sky FO's can feed their families? We can think of a collective solution? You're still looking at this through the binoculars of "what's best for me at jazz"
It’s really not about what’s right for me because I’m already in the left seat and would probably benefit from a GGN merger even with DOH. It’s about what’s right for all those guys who’s been sacrificing for the last 2 years. If the bscale goes and those guys can enjoy decent pay and yos upgrade as well as pml? Fine. But I’ve yet to fly with a single FO that could survive on his salary and I work out of the least expensive base.
Same complaint at GGN... so I guess your FO's are in the same shoes as their peers at GGN. You demonstrate the point of my post perfectly. Thanks!
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Inverted2
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Re: Canadian Pilot Unity

Post by Inverted2 »

I have nothing against GGN pilots and welcome them to Jazz. I have no love for Air Georgian the company. I worked there several years ago and know how they treat their pilots. I don't know the details of the new contract but hopefully it is beneficial to all. This whole mess we are in is because we aren't United as a group and continually get outplayed by 7 figure salary management types.
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Re: Canadian Pilot Unity

Post by Lightchop »

Inverted2 wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:42 pm I have nothing against GGN pilots and welcome them to Jazz. I have no love for Air Georgian the company. I worked there several years ago and know how they treat their pilots. I don't know the details of the new contract but hopefully it is beneficial to all. This whole mess we are in is because we aren't United as a group and continually get outplayed by 7 figure salary management types.
The rich keep getting richer while we sit here bickering about a DOH issue which will COST Air Canada money! Like seriously!
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Rowdy
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Re: Canadian Pilot Unity

Post by Rowdy »

We have to look back at the history. Did GGN and its then union offer the Jazz group who got bumped out of and off the RJ anything when they took the flying? No. And many rejoiced at the DEC Jet jobs they could now grab.

Did it do damage to Jazz and the regional pay and working conditions at the time and well into the future in this country? Yes. We're STILL fighting to get back to where we were years ago.

Is it going to create more issues within the express network? How could it not.

I'm on the fence. I don't like how AC is using this to whipsaw. I don't like to see any of my fellow pilots (including good friends at GGN) lose their jobs. At the same time, I don't want to see the my friends and coworkers who are barely surviving on the promise of quick upgrades here get the shaft. Thanks again to AC management for painting us into a corner.

If there was actually going to be an expansion of the fleet and an necessity for more pilots and movement than what is planned, coupled with proper improvements to WACON. Sure, bring em on at DOH.

Relative seniority? Not happening.

BOTL? well.. that sucks, but at least there are lots of jobs out there in this market. We shall see what actually is in this 'deal' on friday.
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GATRKGA
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Re: Canadian Pilot Unity

Post by GATRKGA »

Rowdy wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:01 pm Did GGN and its then union offer the Jazz group who got bumped out of and off the RJ anything when they took the flying? No. And many rejoiced at the DEC Jet jobs they could now grab
GGN Was under ALPA in 2015? I think not.

Besides the point.

You're right, this happened, so is the only proper thing to do here to 'serve' them in return and hold a grudge as you vote YES or NO to DOH? DOH makes perfect sense. You are no better or worse for going to Jazz. But you joined Air Canada's express carrier, and you are in the same boat whether you're a B scaler at Jazz, B scaler at Sky, or B Scaler at GGN. It's all the same. Where you ended up is not a reflection of you as a person and shouldn't even be a question in determining the DOH issue for GGN in this deal. Like I said, I hope Jazz gets an overall bump in their pay so that it's a win win.
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DH8Pilot
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Re: Canadian Pilot Unity

Post by DH8Pilot »

GATRKGA, you act like many of us at Jazz are adamantly against the GGN pilots. To the contrary, many of us in the current pilot group arrived on property after the 2015 deal, so we don't really have any previous skin in the game. What I've been trying to point out is that DOH would be somewhat unprecedented without AC including it as a requirement in the CPA/CA deal to Jazz. If that's the case, there should be sufficient inclusions in that deal to make it worthwhile to the Jazz pilot group.

While I am a proponent for bettering this industry for all pilots, I'm not going to sign a deal that will negatively affect many on the Jazz list. This deal has the potential to dramatically improve the lives of those on the RJ, while worsening those on the DH8, particularly those on the bottom of the list. If you're sitting on reserve on the bottom of the DH8's overstaffed list, barely getting called out, this can amount to thousands of dollars of lost money through per-diems. Not to mentioned the lure of Jazz's quick upgrades having been entirely eroded over the past year, all being pushed farther back.

Given we're all frozen on type for 4 years, this deal must include some means of escape from sitting the length of that period on the bottom of the DH8 list. Whether this comes in the form of better flow to AC or an unfreezing on type, something must be done for these pilots. So to answer your question, I'm all for pilot unity, but not at the expense of voting in a significantly worsened reality for my colleagues.

As Rowdy said, "I don't like to see any of my fellow pilots (including good friends at GGN) lose their jobs. At the same time, I don't want to see the my friends and coworkers who are barely surviving on the promise of quick upgrades here get the shaft"

Anyway, all these discussions are purely academic until the CA is released on Friday. Again, I simply have trouble seeing DOH for GGN crews even being mentioned unless AC has made it so, regardless of the morality of it.
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Re: Canadian Pilot Unity

Post by daedalusx »

What about having the GGN guys join Jazz at BOTL seniority but with their current pay protected?
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
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Re: Canadian Pilot Unity

Post by DH8Pilot »

daedalusx wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:24 pm What about having the GGN guys join Jazz at BOTL seniority but with their current pay protected?
I think anything equitable to both pilot groups would be ideal. However, for your above scenario, I can only assume AC would have to pay for the bumps in salary.
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Re: Canadian Pilot Unity

Post by GATRKGA »

DH8Pilot wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:19 pm GATRKGA, you act like many of us at Jazz are adamantly against the GGN pilots. To the contrary, many of us in the current pilot group arrived on property after the 2015 deal, so we don't really have any previous skin in the game. What I've been trying to point out is that DOH would be somewhat unprecedented without AC including it as a requirement in the CPA/CA deal to Jazz. If that's the case, there should be sufficient inclusions in that deal to make it worthwhile to the Jazz pilot group.

While I am a proponent for bettering this industry for all pilots, I'm not going to sign a deal that will negatively affect many on the Jazz list. This deal has the potential to dramatically improve the lives of those on the RJ, while worsening those on the DH8, particularly those on the bottom of the list. If you're sitting on reserve on the bottom of the DH8's overstaffed list, barely getting called out, this can amount to thousands of dollars of lost money through per-diems. Not to mentioned the lure of Jazz's quick upgrades having been entirely eroded over the past year, all being pushed farther back.

Given we're all frozen on type for 4 years, this deal must include some means of escape from sitting the length of that period on the bottom of the DH8 list. Whether this comes in the form of better flow to AC or an unfreezing on type, something must be done for these pilots. So to answer your question, I'm all for pilot unity, but not at the expense of voting in a significantly worsened reality for my colleagues.

As Rowdy said, "I don't like to see any of my fellow pilots (including good friends at GGN) lose their jobs. At the same time, I don't want to see the my friends and coworkers who are barely surviving on the promise of quick upgrades here get the shaft"

Anyway, all these discussions are purely academic until the CA is released on Friday. Again, I simply have trouble seeing DOH for GGN crews even being mentioned unless AC has made it so, regardless of the morality of it.
What's best for the collective group? You're still making this about GGN and Jazz. You are all the same. We are all the same. Why differentiate it? What's bad for a Jazz FO today is bad for a GGN FO today as well. B scale reserve sitters being impacted by thousands of dollars because a GGN guy comes in ahead? How about when that B scaler gets screwed in another opener cause GGN still exists and "competitively" kept the prices of pilots down? You need to present consistency in your argument for pilot unity. What you are presenting here is "I will do what's best for GGN, after I take care of myself and my Jazz collegues." You are all the same, we are all the same. Jazz/Sky/GGN. AC owns us all. This isn't about Jazz individually. That's my point.

'
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Re: Canadian Pilot Unity

Post by DH8Pilot »

GATRKGA wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:00 pm What's best for the collective group? You're still making this about GGN and Jazz. You are all the same. We are all the same. Why differentiate it? What's bad for a Jazz FO today is bad for a GGN FO today as well. B scale reserve sitters being impacted by thousands of dollars because a GGN guy comes in ahead? How about when that B scaler gets screwed in another opener cause GGN still exists and "competitively" kept the prices of pilots down? You need to present consistency in your argument for pilot unity. What you are presenting here is "I will do what's best for GGN, after I take care of myself and my Jazz collegues." You are all the same, we are all the same. Jazz/Sky/GGN. AC owns us all. This isn't about Jazz individually. That's my point.
That's exactly what I'm say. And no, we're not a collective group. As I stated earlier, I'd be all for an agreement that was mutually beneficial for all parties, but I'm not going to sign something at the expense of my colleagues.

I like the optimism here, but it's coming from those who A. would only be marginally affected by DOH, or B. those outside both companies. To be clear, I'm part of group A as I was hired in 2016; however, I recognize the negative impact this could have on a lot of my junior colleagues.

GATRKGA, based on your past posts I can only assume you're an employee at Sky. How would you feel if you'd sat bottom of the list there for over a year, with absolutely no hiring occurring, only to have an entire pilot group be piled on above you. This was after you were told in your initial ground school that'd you not only move up the entire list within a year, but that you'd likely be upgraded. Furthermore, let's say the plane you're on is being reduced, and likely all that will be left with be destination that are far from ideal on a worse schedule. Finally, let's also say that your friends from ground school who got placed on a better, faster, newer jet aircraft that also has a better schedule, have all rocketed up their FO list while you're sitting at the bottom of yours. Do you think you'd be a huge fan of DOH?
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ssssssbob
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Re: Canadian Pilot Unity

Post by ssssssbob »

DH8Pilot wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:18 pm
GATRKGA wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:00 pm What's best for the collective group? You're still making this about GGN and Jazz. You are all the same. We are all the same. Why differentiate it? What's bad for a Jazz FO today is bad for a GGN FO today as well. B scale reserve sitters being impacted by thousands of dollars because a GGN guy comes in ahead? How about when that B scaler gets screwed in another opener cause GGN still exists and "competitively" kept the prices of pilots down? You need to present consistency in your argument for pilot unity. What you are presenting here is "I will do what's best for GGN, after I take care of myself and my Jazz collegues." You are all the same, we are all the same. Jazz/Sky/GGN. AC owns us all. This isn't about Jazz individually. That's my point.
That's exactly what I'm say. And no, we're not a collective group. As I stated earlier, I'd be all for an agreement that was mutually beneficial for all parties, but I'm not going to sign something at the expense of my colleagues.

I like the optimism here, but it's coming from those who A. would only be marginally affected by DOH, or B. those outside both companies. To be clear, I'm part of group A as I was hired in 2016; however, I recognize the negative impact this could have on a lot of my junior colleagues.

GATRKGA, based on your past posts I can only assume you're an employee at Sky. How would you feel if you'd sat bottom of the list there for over a year, with absolutely no hiring occurring, only to have an entire pilot group be piled on above you. This was after you were told in your initial ground school that'd you not only move up the entire list within a year, but that you'd likely be upgraded. Furthermore, let's say the plane you're on is being reduced, and likely all that will be left with be destination that are far from ideal on a worse schedule. Finally, let's also say that your friends from ground school who got placed on a better, faster, newer jet aircraft that also has a better schedule, have all rocketed up their FO list while you're sitting at the bottom of yours. Do you think you'd be a huge fan of DOH?
THIS. RIGHT HERE.
This isn't even a merger to begin with. The fact that we are offering them some form of employment is already a lot when we had no obligation to do so to begin with as two separate companies

What about the guys at Jazz who recently just got a base transfer so they don't need to commute, only to be bumped out again?(something that I risk right now)
Or the reserve FO who, after a year, finally held a block only to be bumped back into reserve?

Why do the most junior guys at Jazz have to pay for the mistakes of a competitor? If I'm a McDonalds cashier and Tim Hortons went bankrupt, should I lose my work schedule because McDonalds decides to extend job offers for goodwill?

I'm NOT saying screw GGN/ SKY like you guys are suggesting here. Fact of the matter is we are still two different companies. Some of us held out from going to GGN to gett better qualifications and go for Jazz. Now we are going be bumped down by people who hopped on GGN on first opportunity?
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Re: Canadian Pilot Unity

Post by Lightchop »

ssssssbob wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:37 pm


What about the guys at Jazz who recently just got a base transfer so they don't need to commute, only to be bumped out again?(something that I risk right now)
Or the reserve FO who, after a year, finally held a block only to be bumped back into reserve?

Based on our current collective agreement, this could never happen. GGN pilots likely will only bid into an open vacancy. Once you hold a position, it's yours so a GGN pilot can't just come in and bump you off the list. That's not how it works. Maybe if you read your contract (something a lot of post 2015 hires have never done at length) you would know this.

At worst they will have a few people slot ahead of them if base vacancies open up but they will not be bumped out of their base. Now, if due to the loss of a few -100's people are pushed out of a position because a current JAZZ pilot is reduced they would have reduction rights. So there goes your freeze and you can now bid onto whatever you want.

No Jazz pilot will be negatively affected by DOH integration aside from maybe spending a few months longer on reserve. However if AC has to hire a ton of people contingent on this deal, it will be a benefit in the long run. More upgrades, more people going to AC who want to.

I'll wait to see the deal but I am pretty optimistic.
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Re: Canadian Pilot Unity

Post by 805ITT »

Honest question. Does Wasaya and Bearskin pilots bring over their seniority date through the Jazz APP program?
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Re: Canadian Pilot Unity

Post by C-GGGQ »

ssssssbob wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:37 pm
Why do the most junior guys at Jazz have to pay for the mistakes of a competitor? If I'm a McDonalds cashier and Tim Hortons went bankrupt, should I lose my work schedule because McDonalds decides to extend job offers for goodwill?

I'm NOT saying screw GGN/ SKY like you guys are suggesting here. Fact of the matter is we are still two different companies. Some of us held out from going to GGN to gett better qualifications and go for Jazz. Now we are going be bumped down by people who hopped on GGN on first opportunity?
Exactly. It's not about screw GGN etc. It's the fact that the original premise of this thread that pilots are "all the same all one group" is provably false. We are not a professionally designated job with a nationwide seniority list, we all work for separate competing companies. Pilots ARE in competition against every other pilot for that coveted ground school call. Look at all the hiring threads in these forums for example. While we can be happy that a fellow pilot did get the call when we hear it, they took a slot that could have been yours. That's why all the fuss about total time vs jet time vs pic vs degree. We all need a way to distinguish ourselves to the prospective employer.
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Re: Canadian Pilot Unity

Post by Lightchop »

805ITT wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:08 pm Honest question. Does Wasaya and Bearskin pilots bring over their seniority date through the Jazz APP program?
Yes and not. I believe you had to be on property at the time the LOU was signed which was Oct last year. And apply and get accepted for a job. Then they could only defer for a short while. If you turned down the job offer and reapplied your defer date would be the date of the job offer not the October date. It's a bit confusing but it only was used by like 5 people.
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